Divorce Q&A (1 Cor 7) | The Sandhurst Podcast

In this episode, Will Rutt and Adam Richardson answer your questions about marriage and divorce.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hey everyone, thanks for joining us. This is a podcast where we want to equip the saints to think biblically about God, life, and culture. What we're about to talk about is something that's pretty tender, and that is divorce. As you listen, I hope that you'll keep in mind two things. One, that we are attempting to answer questions that the Bible doesn't give specific answers to. There's nuance and there's um case-by-case scenarios. What we're trying to do is give general principles, and what there's one principle that you're gonna hear, um, or one value that you're gonna hear that gets championed a lot, and that is discernment. When we don't have specific answers here to our specific questions, then we go to biblical principles and we exercise discernment. So you're gonna hear that a lot. Um, second thing is as Adam and I are talking, we want to encourage you to be able to try to think, okay, what is my version of this when we're talking about marriage or um how to love your spouse? What is my version of this biblical principle that I can apply in my marriage so that um we're taking the things that are spoken about uh specifically from our story generally, and that you can apply it to your marriage specifically. We want to grow godly families, and this is part of it. So I hope this I hope this helps. All right, what's up, Sandhurst? Uh, thanks for joining us. We are doing a podcast. Uh why are we doing a podcast? Um, well, the reason is we are in 1 Corinthians, and 1 Corinthians has um it addresses a bunch of topics that makes us scratch our heads sometimes and uh wonder, okay, well, what about this and what about that? Um most recently we were talking about marriage and divorce from 1 Corinthians 7. And so why the podcast, situationally, it's to to answer questions that couldn't fit in the sermon. Um, but there's a bigger picture here for us, and that as church, as saints, we want to love and obey God by the power of the Spirit, for the praise of his glory, and help others do the same. Amen to that. How do we help others do the same? A big part of that is equipping. Yep. And that's a big part of your role, Adam, equipping pastor. Uh, you want to help, you want to equip us to think biblically about God, life, and culture. Amen. And so that's why we're doing this. Uh we want to help us think biblically about God, life, and culture so that we can love and obey God according to his word. Right. So we are we're Bible people. Yeah. And um, what that means for us as in as we go through some of these questions is uh we're Bible people. That means anytime a question is asked, we're gonna go first to this. So we'll ask the question and then we'll read what does the Bible say about that, and then uh we'll talk about it together. So um, quick recap: 1 Corinthians 7 is about marriage, it's about divorce, and we invited people to ask questions about um whatever they had related to the topic. Um so there's four things that we're gonna go over today that were sent in. So thank you for sending in your questions. Uh the four sort of topics are abuse, sexual immorality, um, remarriage, and advice for how do you give advice when you see somebody, um, either a friend or a family member going through what you would see as unbiblical divorce? How do you handle that? And then we have um some final words that we want to offer. Um so this is well kind of where we're going. And wanted to start with Adam, you and I have uh similar, very aligned values in terms of marriage, in terms of parenting, um, but very different backgrounds too. Um divorce has been something that has uh touched you personally. Yeah. And so I just wanted to see if you would share a little bit about your journey with divorce and how that impacted you.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Absolutely, because I mean, divorce is not just a theory for me. It's something that I live through. I'm a child of divorce. My uh parents uh separated when I was seven and they divorced when I was eight. And my uh uh dad went on to be married several times. And so there were several families uh growing up alongside of me and my mom and my brother. And so um my growing up experience from very early on was in a single parent home. And I'm very familiar with those challenges and very sympathetic to single parent homes because of that, very tender uh because of that. And so um my heart uh hurts for those families, and I understand those challenges. Um I also understand that just having a mom and a dad in the home doesn't mean it's perfect or glorious. That can also be difficult in its own way, and is it there's a spectrum, it's not just good or bad or right or wrong. It's uh but at the same time, having grown up in a single parent home, um, super huge kudos to my mom. And uh I saw the sacrifices that she made to help my brother and me and what that meant to us. And so uh there is a tender place in my heart for that. And um uh I hope that that will uh give me some um, my personal experience will give me some uh some roots as I approach the text and submit myself to biblical text, as you said, at the same time uh understanding my experience through the text that God gave us and recognizing that God's plan is ideal.

SPEAKER_02 5:17

Yeah. Yeah, so tender clarity is what we want. So we want to approach a sensitive thing with sensitivity and gentleness and tenderness.

SPEAKER_03 5:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:26

Um, and we also don't apologize for the Bible. We think that the Bible is God's word and it's good. Yeah. And so tender clarity is what we're after. So uh let's let's tackle some of these questions. Yep. Two related to abuse. Um, question one is abuse, is abuse grounds for divorce? That's question one. And then question two, related to that, is how do you distinguish between like difficulty and abuse? Where is that line? How do you know where that line is?

SPEAKER_01 5:57

Is this just the usual or is this over the line?

SPEAKER_02 6:00

Right, right. So those are the questions. Let's uh let's open the text. We got first Corinthians seven and Matthew 19 are going to speak to marriage and divorce. So uh I'll start, uh I'll read Matthew 19, and then Adam, maybe you can read 1 Corinthians 7. Yep. And uh that'll that'll give us our text. Okay. So Matthew 19, Jesus is asked a question about divorce, and it says in Matthew 19, verse 3, some Pharisees came to Jesus testing him and asking, Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all? So where are there when are you allowed to get divorced? And he answered and said, Have you not read that he who created them from the beginning made them male and female? And said, For this reason, a man shall leave his father and his mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate. They said to him, Why then did Moses command to give her a certificate of divorce and send her away? He said to them, Because of your hardness of heart, Moses permitted you to divorce your wives. But from the beginning it was not it has not been this way. And I say to you, okay, so this is getting to the uh where are their biblical grounds? Yeah. I say to you, whoever divorces his wife except for immorality and marries another woman commits adultery. So we have two texts that are going to speak to when is divorce permissible biblically. Matthew 19 is one of them, and answer in the case of sexual immorality. Okay, so not related to abuse, but we're just trying to lay a groundwork for when does the Bible say it is permissible. So read first Corinthians 7.

SPEAKER_01 7:45

Um just opening uh nine or ten verses yet.

SPEAKER_02 7:48

Maybe we'll maybe start at verse 10.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Okay, yep. Yeah. To the married, I give this command, not I, but the Lord. A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband, and a husband must not divorce his wife.

SPEAKER_02 8:05

Okay. And then he goes uh later and talks about if the unbelieving spouse wants to leave, we read that part.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yes. To the rest, I say this an I, not the Lord, if a brother has any wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean as it is, they are holy. Okay, confusing verses there. Uh we talked about it in the sermon.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

We'll keep going. Yeah, go back and check that clip. But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances. How do you know, wife, whether you'll save your husband? Or how do you know, husband, whether you'll save your wife?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

Okay, so uh if Matthew 19 says biblical commission permission for divorce is in the case of sexual immorality, what did you just read? 1 Corinthians 7 says uh divorce is permissible under what circumstance?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

If an unbeliever uh abandons you departs.

SPEAKER_02 9:04

Yeah, so there are two and only two biblical permissions or scenarios where divorce is permitted in the New Testament. One is in the case of sexual immorality, and the other is in the case of abandonment by an unbelieving spouse. That's 1 Corinthians 7. Yep. Okay, so uh what we didn't read is anything about abuse. And so then the question is, well, then what about abuse? Um, because there's something like deep inside us, I think emotionally that just goes like, well, certainly if anything is grounds for divorce, abuse would be that. And um and the New Testament doesn't speak to it, it gives two things, and that's not one of the two. So um how do we handle this? Um there's a sort of uh first Corinthians seven case that you can make for abuse being grounds for divorce. And let me try to uh make that case and uh get your some some of your responses to it. Okay. So um 1 Corinthians 7 is the case study is when a believer is married to an unbeliever. Okay, well let's say let's just say that you're in a in a marriage and there is some sort of abuse happening in it, and uh whether it's physical, verbal, emotional, there's some sort of abuse. That while that person, the abuser, may be saying, I'm a Christian, their actions are saying something different.

SPEAKER_03 10:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Their actions are saying they're not a Christian, which means we're in a first Corinthians 7 situation, a believer married to an unbeliever. Okay? Yep. Now, that unbelieving abuser may be saying with their words, I want to end the marriage. But they may be saying with their actions, well, it's it would seem that what they are saying with their actions, I don't want to be married to you. Right. Either by or whatever form of abuse. So now we're squarely inside of 1 Corinthians 7, an unbeliever married to a believer, and the unbeliever saying with their actions, I don't want in this. And so this is how you can make a biblical case for um for divorce in the case of abuse. I have my own thoughts on that. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 11:15

Yeah, so uh, you know, that that is a uh, I think it's it's important that you look at the whole situation and not just the words that are being spoken, right? You know, that what what do that what does this person say not just with their words uh or what do they say with their life? Because that's the substance of what they're bringing. Faith without works is dead. Now, the the problem is no husband or wife is perfect, perfectly matches up to this, and we all fall short. So the question is, how short can you fall before it's considered out of bounds, right? And that is that is a very difficult line. But but I I agree that uh two quick points. One, in the case of abuse, I think we would all agree, regardless of divorce and marriage, the person should uh be helped to be removed from the situation. Yes. And so we're not saying, you know, if there's a case to stay in the marriage that you just need to remain under the abuse. We we need to, you know, help you be safe and be protected. Uh and so we would never encourage a person in an abusive situation or even close to it, the the where there's hairs of difference to remain in it.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

Yeah, to remain in that situation.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

To remain in the situation, exactly. So uh so that's one thing. And I think the second thing is then, yeah, at what point does a life that communicates I don't I have abandoned this vow, where where where do you say that is the case as opposed to that's just my interpretation of the case?

SPEAKER_02 12:52

Right. Yeah, so I agree, I think, with everything that you're saying. Here's the difficulty with me for me with 1 Corinthians 7 and everything I just said. Um if you're going to kind of claim a 1 Corinthians 7 situation, then you have to determine that the person to whom you're married really is an unbeliever. And that's a big assessment, conclusion to have to decide um if they're saying they're a Christian, they profess to be a believer, uh, but I've determined that they're not. That's one uh level of difficulty for it to be a first first Corinthians 7 justification. Um and then the the second layer uh that just makes it difficult is at what point, and this is the second question, uh, how do you distinguish between like difficulty and actual abuse? Um and that is that is really uh difficult. Um nobody nobody wants uh things to be so bad in a marriage where it's just objectively uh easy to to say abuse. And that's you know, physical abuse is uh terrible, but but easy to identify identify. Yeah other things not so I didn't not so easy to identify very subtle and so or can be subtle. Um so uh to to bring more clarity to the first question as we head into the second question, is abuse grounds for divorce? Um scripturally it is not necess it is not explicitly grounds for divorce, but it can be in a first Corinthians seven situation.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Because the spouse has abandoned the vows, has has abandoned and and has uh has denied the marriage.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah, well I I but I would take it even further than that, because for it to be a first Corinthians seven situation, it can't be just a spouse abandoning the vows. It's a spouse who's an unbeliever abandoning the the marriage. And so if that's the case, then I think there is a biblical justification. Um so how do you determine um what what what is what is like you might say normal or really great difficulty and what is actual abuse? Um there's there's great cultural momentum in the direction of in a hard marriage to kind of put the label on it abuse, um, emotional abuse, verbal abuse. And I'm not saying that those aren't real and can't happen, but I am saying that it appears, it seems to me like these uh kind of it's kind of like playing an ace card while there's emotional abuse and so I'm free and um and it's just hard to know, okay. Well, what what are the measurements that would say it's uh abuse? I I want to give three thoughts uh to help that will be um applicable later as well. Um in the absence of clear objective measurements, I would look for three things uh frequency, severity, and responsiveness to correction. Okay, frequency, uh whatever the abuse is let's say it's an eruption of anger. Yeah. And and and let's put this in a category different than physical abuse because that's easy to identify. I'm talking the ones that are harder to identify. Um eruption of anger. Frequency. How how often is this a once-a-week thing? Is this a daily thing? Is this a couple times a month thing? How how often is this happening? That's frequency. Um, in terms of severity, you talk about eruption of anger. Uh, what is the severity of this? Is this um uh kind of losing his temper and raising his voice? Is it raising his voice and punching a wall? Is it raising voice punching a wall and storming out, not leaving for I mean leaving and not coming back for um a certain amount of time? Right. Uh is it or what is what is neglect? Is is neglect uh sleeping in a different room is neglect, uh sleeping like leaving for a day, is it leaving for a couple days? Uh so severity, I'm looking for the the frequency and severity because they're not all all the same. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

And I and I think that's a really important distinction because you know, we all lose our temper at times, and uh it can't just be that, oh, this person, you know, fell short. Look, to air is human, but there it there are patterns, and frequency and severity matters. You're right. You know, is there is there threat? Is there is there a sense of coercion? Is there a sense of um domination? Uh is there uh a sense that this is a pattern in this person's life of trying to essentially uh take over and control the other spouse. And uh, and and and and those are the that frequency and severity is is an is an important factor to determine is this a person who's struggling, who needs who needs help, uh, or is this person who's who's not struggling, who's uh uh aggressive, and aggression is is like and that's where you bring in your third point, responsiveness to correction. That that they are they're not interested in reform. They are um they are gonna be who they are, and that is that uh they have abandoned essentially the marriage to their view of it, their experience of it, without considering the partner.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

Yeah. So frequency, severity, responsiveness to correction. The and one word, if if you read about um church leaders present and past who are trying to wrestle with these questions, uh, one word is gonna keep coming up, and it's this word discernment. Yeah. Discernment. Discernment. Uh, because there aren't clear identifying markers always.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

And so And can I say one more thing about that? Yeah. Um and and the idea here is not that the Bible's trying the Bible is not trying to, you know, keep you in your bad marriage. Uh I think God is trying to say wedding vows matter and they are sacred and they are holy. And the Bible is trying to protect both spouses by saying we're not gonna let hiccups, difficulties, struggles give your spouse permission for wife swapping, essentially. You know, um we're we're going to make we're gonna make divorce something that is hard to get to because as humans, it would be an easy way out. And he's saying, take your marriage vows seriously. And again, we would never want someone in an abuse situation to stay in it, regardless of that person is a believer or a non-believer. But if they are a if they are truly a believer and then separating that person, then then a lifetime uh of celibacy outside of that, you know, marriage honoring those marriage vows that were initial, you know, is something that my mom did. You know, she she honored those marriage vows and she stayed single and she raised uh me and my brother, and you know, I just have huge respect for her for what she did for that. So I think the Bible is trying to be to recognize the the hardness of man's heart, saying, I'm gonna make these marriage vows seriously that they matter to God and they are for a life. But there is a sense in which if if if ultimate things happen, then there is a way to to to nullify and move on. But it is it is a very uh uh i it is the rare case and and is meant to be a high bar. It is meant to be a high bar because these things matter.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah, and that high bar is again in the New Testament, sexual immorality and abandonment by an believer.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

So discernment, how do we discern um things that aren't objective objectively measured? Here's a good way to not do it. Uh, when you're highly emotional and doing an AI, an AI search on is my relationship abusive?

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

That is not probably going to lead to good discernment. No. Um certainly not. So what's a better way? Uh 1 Corinthians 6 actually, I think, gives some principles to uh to good discernment that I think really help us here. It's dealing with a different issue, and the issue that 1 Corinthians 6 is dealing with is lawsuits. Okay. We we talked about this a few weeks ago, actually, Hal preached it, and here's what's happening in the church. Uh, there's disputes happening in the church, believers against believers, and so what do they decide? I'm gonna sue you. That's the decision. So they're they're suing each other in the church, and Paul um Paul addresses it, and he says this He says, I say this to your shame. Is it so that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren? But brother goes to law with brethren. Brother and that before unbelievers, actually, then it's already a defeat for you that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this to your own brethren. So the situation that he's addressing here is um lawsuits. They're suing one another. And what I think is so helpful here is a couple things. One, uh, what Paul he weighs his rights as a Corinthian against his responsibility as a Christian. And he goes, as a Corinthian, I have rights to sue you.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

Right.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

Because I've been wronged. And uh, but then he weighs those against his responsibility as a Christian, and he goes, actually, I'm gonna give up what I have a right to do so that the glory of God would not be mocked and defamed in my city. That's right. Okay. So that's that's one layer. The second layer is what he says should be happening. So instead of lawsuits, here's what should be happening is in verse five. Is it so that there is not among you one wise man who will be able to decide between his brethren? Right. Paul's going, hey, there's wisdom in the church that can help bring discernment between the disagreement or between the conflict that's ha that's happening. So um, in terms of discernment, where do we go for good discernment? We go to the church. I really believe that um as long as the church is operating, you know, right here, uh, that uh and we have hearts and minds that are thinking biblically about God, life, and culture, the church is like the hub of wisdom in the world. And in the church is where we can find good wisdom and discernment. So what am I saying? I'm saying AI search, not helpful. Bringing your conflict in your marriage, the difficulty, what feels like maybe abuse, right? It maybe is to bring that to people in the church, whether it's um, in our case, a life group leader, a pastor, an elder, um, to bring it to a counselor and to get uh wise discernment from people who share your values and share your worldview.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

And you know what's interesting is this is this is not rocket science, right? The whole world believes in this. The whole world believes in community, the power of the many over the one. Um, you know, and I mean, back the ancient Greeks were writing about the fact that uh you'll typically find more wisdom among a hundred people than with one person, right? And so there's a sense in which God is just simply saying community is a good balance to any individual who get who needs perspective. The community can provide perspective. And and and for us as as believers, as Christians, we believe that that community that God has given us is our local church. Like He's given us, like you said, whether it's uh a group of elders, whether it's your life group, whether it's your community group, core group, whether it's uh just brothers and sisters, that you know that this is the community that God has given us to correct our perspectives, individual perspectives, when they get out of alignment. And we all do this.

SPEAKER_02 25:02

Yeah. Okay, so uh we've said a lot of words. And so what what are we saying? Is abuse grounds for divorce? And the to say it shortly, I would say not necessarily, but it could be if we are in a first Corinthians 7 situation where the abuse reflects abandonment by an unbeliever. How to discern if this is abuse or like normal but really great difficulty? Discernment in the context of community of wise people in your church.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

And I and to to you know, to kind of call back those factors, uh, what is the frequency? What is the severity? What is the responsiveness to correction? Yeah. And and we it's a process. And you know, while again, uh just a repeating, while it while this those are the markers for divorce, if there is abuse, separation is always good.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

Yep. So to bring that up, uh I've finished working with a couple recently who spent months separated and we met um regularly weekly working through this separation, and it worked. Yeah. They they're back together, and so the the biblical purposeful separation for the sake of reconciliation, it actually worked. And so all right, let's go to the next uh topic. The next topic is dealing with sexual immorality. There's questions that uh came in about that, and uh and just one of the things that we are already read about in Matthew 19. So in Matthew 19, we know that sexual immorality is, according to Jesus, a scenario in which divorce is permitted. Right. The question is where do you draw the line there? Like how much sexual immorality amounts to biblical permission. Right. And let me let me complicate it a little. Well, maybe we define the the word and then complicate it a little bit. Uh the word that Jesus uses is the same word that Paul uses in 1 Corinthians many times, and the Greek word is pornea. Pornea is this umbrella term that uh captures all sorts of different sexual immorality, right? Um, from fornication to adultery to homosexuality to prostitution, uh, all sorts of sexual immorality that falls under the umbrella of pornea.

SPEAKER_03 27:26

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

Okay, so that's what pornea is. Let me complicate it a little bit for us because Jesus kind of complicates it if you bring the Sermon on the Mount into the picture. Okay? So in the Sermon on Mount, Matthew 5, Jesus is talking about He's talking about um marriage and he's talking about divorce, and he actually talks about um anger and lust. So here's what he says. He says, um Where am I Oh yes, verse uh Matthew 5, verse 29. If your right eye makes you stumble. Okay, verse 27, sorry. Yeah, you've heard that it was said, you shall not commit adultery. But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Okay. Right.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

So So that means every single wife has grounds for divorce.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

Yeah, and every single husband too, probably.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

And so, yeah, if if pornea is something that doesn't just happen with my body, according to Jesus, it can happen in my heart, right? Which pornea is not the word he uses here, but adultery in the heart, then then don't we all have biblical grounds here?

SPEAKER_03 28:46

Right.

SPEAKER_02 28:47

And certainly that cannot be what Jesus is saying here, and we know it's not. The point of the Sermon on the Mount is to raise the bar of righteousness that had been lowered. He's raising it to show them you need a savior. Okay, that is what the point of, and he's not equating things that happen in the heart with things that actually happen.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

He's not equating anger with murder or lust with adultery. He's raising the bar to say you need a savior. That's what's happening in the Sermon on the Mount. Right. But it still gets a little complicated or a little bit more sticky. Um, if if pornea can happen in my heart, then don't we all have grounds? And if that's not the point, then where do we draw the line at which there's biblical justification?

SPEAKER_01 29:26

Right. So, I mean, so the question on the table really is is is pornea something that can happen in your heart? You know, the this this this this way in which we say this is grounds for divorce.

SPEAKER_02 29:35

Yeah. Yeah, we know it can happen in the heart. The question is, does that constitute uh grounds for divorce? Gotcha. And uh so there's one way of thinking about it, and this actually came up in one of the questions that was sent, is well, is if it's only happening in the heart, then it's not grounds for divorce. It would have to be happening uh in the body, with the body, uh, for it to amount to cornea that gives permission for divorce. And that's one way to think about it. Uh but that's not necessarily what the Bible says. It's it would be an interpretation of kind of a way to draw the line. I personally wouldn't draw the line there. I don't think I think there can be things that are happening that are in the heart that would amount to permission for divorce that aren't necessarily happening with another person. And so I would come back to the three questions that we talked about with abuse and apply those um questions to sexual immorality as well. Severity, frequency, responsiveness to correction. Frequency, is is there pornea happening whether it's is it is is there pornea happening um whether in the heart or with the body? Is this is this like a once a week thing? Is this a couple times a day thing? Is this a once-a-month thing? What what is the frequency here? What is the severity? Is this um something that's happening on social media and uh an ad an ad come came up and you you lingered? Or is this uh porn videos a couple times a day? Severity, because those are not the same. Those aren't happening with another person, but they're happening privately. So that's why I wouldn't say that it has to be happening with a person for it to amount to biblical permission. Um so severity, frequency, and responsiveness to correction. Is is this uh a person who hates their sin, they're in a core group, they're they're struggling towards holiness, there's repentance and uh kind of a hey, help me, or is this a a men will be men? Right. This is uh this is kind of what I do. Uh where's the responsiveness there? And so that brings us then to the question discernment again.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yeah, I mean, Pornea, yeah, again, it uh I there's a there's a huge there's there is a categorical difference between something you do with your body and something you do in your heart, but what you do in your heart matters. And you know, Jesus made the point in Matthew uh in the Sermon on the Mount and throughout the New Testament, you know, there's such a big focus on the heart. And so um definitely, you know, you're right. I I think the the point that the scriptures are trying to make is that the body as a sexual, um, as a male or a female is is a sacred temple, right? And and and that sexual intimacy in marriage is given as a as a holy illustration of our spiritual intimacy, which marriage then is our uh an illustration of our intimacy with God. And so God takes um sexual intimacy as an act of holy worship of God, that we're honoring this union that we have with Him, and we don't have idols. In other words, we don't worship God and someone else. We don't love our spouse and someone else in this intimate way. We have one God and we have one spouse that illustrates this holy union that we have. And so this again, the Bible has a very high uh view of marriage and of purity and sexuality in marriage because it is a reflection of our devotion, single-hearted devotion to the Lord. So we have single-hearted devotion to a spouse. And when we share that with other people outside the marriage, whether in in body or in heart, then it it destroys the union, it destroys the unity, it destroys the holy sacred nature of that exclusivity, of that, of that intimacy. And so uh that is something you can do, obviously, with your body, uh, but it is definitely something you can do with in your heart and in your mind. And I I I could agree a hundred percent that do you have a person who's giving themselves over to it, or do you have someone who's fighting it? And and those are two very different scenarios.

SPEAKER_02 34:00

Yeah. And this is really hard and it's very real uh for all the people listening right now who are like, yeah, abuse, that's that's not not not something that I've ever been kind of inclined towards uh to like inflict on my spouse, for many of the people in our church, sexual immorality is something we're very much inclined towards. And so um Adam, if you're gonna speak to a someone who's in a marriage and their spouse has been involved in sexual immorality, responsive to correction, but but hasn't gained any victory over it, uh, what would you want to say to both the the person who's involved in the sin and hates it and to the spouse who's suffering from it?

SPEAKER_01 35:00

So, you know, if your Christian spouse has been involved in some kind of pornea, you know, and then and and you're you become aware of this, whether it's a physical affair or whether it's uh an online thing, um you know, as biblically, if if you know, again, bring that so, so sorry, first of all. I mean, that's heartbreaking, and I cannot imagine the betrayal that you must feel. And that is a real hurt and a real grief. And so we we grieve with you, and God grieves with you. So that is hard. Uh secondly, um bring that to your church authority, whoever that is, whether it's your mentor, whether it's a leader in a group you're in, whether it's uh an elder or an elder's wife that you know, uh, and and and start the conversation beyond yourself so that you're not having to fight this battle alone and having to think through these things alone. You can bring in a greater perspective and just leverage the community that the church offers. If it's a physical thing, there is an obvious case where you have the right to leave, but you don't have to. You can choose to stay. Some people can recover from that and move on, and some others cannot. And and and that is something that you will decide with in conversation with your people over time. Um But I think the first thing is to grieve, second, to bring it to another person uh who can mentor and talk you through that. And then thirdly, you know, with your spouse, is this something that your spouse wants to heal from, or is this something that your spouse is going to embrace? And then that's where the the church can come around you and help guide you in that conversation uh which path you will take to either stay and heal or whether to depart and and and and and and divorce.

SPEAKER_02 36:45

Okay, so there's just when there's permission for divorce, that doesn't mean a requirement for divorce. Absolutely not. Um but there is permission. There's permission. And um so yeah, if he hates it, if if if the spouse is involved in sexual sin, hates it and yet is enticed by it, then uh one thing I would add is uh if you if you're the spouse who's suffering from your married partner who is giving into the sexual sin, it feels really personal. It feels like a very deeply personal betrayal. And and in some ways it is. It is. But what it is not is a personal betrayal that reflects any sort of deficiency that you're bringing to the marriage.

SPEAKER_01 37:35

You're not at fault for this.

SPEAKER_02 37:36

Yeah, well, you're not at fault, and yeah, uh it doesn't reflect uh deficiency on your part. It is um and and he probably hates it. Uh the person who's giving into the sin. And so as as much as you can find it in your heart to uh to in the midst of the um brokenness to show compassion, uh that I think that'll serve as well. And everything you said too, I think really matters in terms of bringing some people into it who can help you show compassion, who can help you bear the burden and the weight of it.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

Um well the going through the loss of the marriage that you thought you had, when you discover something like this, an affair or some sort of some sort of pornea, I mean, all the all of the grief responses will kick in, um, whether it's anger, uh, depression, denial, justification, you know. Uh and and there's you know, and that's why it's so important to get help, someone to talk you through it, to walk you through it, to help you um think clearly at a time when your judgment will be clouded naturally and understandably so, to help help someone help you through that grief. And it may lead towards a path, again, depending on your spouse and the severity and et cetera, it may lead towards a path of healing, it may lead towards a path of divorce. And that's that's a process that you'll have to go through.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Yeah. All right, let's let's rapid fire a few questions. Um a question related to this that somebody sent in is what do we do as a church to help our people who are struggling mightily with pornography? I'll speak and then uh I'll let you jump into Adam. Yep. One thing that we do is that that I personally want to do is be able to speak openly and honestly about it, to be able to say words in the gathering in the worship service that aren't often said, but they are very real parts of people's life. And so I want to speak openly on and honestly about the things that people are really struggling with. And and the purpose for that is I don't want to trivialize sin, but I do want to normalize the the sexual um the the that we have sexual urges, and that doesn't make me crazy, that makes me quite normal. Human, yeah. And uh to the extent that I feel like what is normal needs to be suppressed and and kept quiet and put um kept in the dark, then then shame really gets a grip. And so when we keep it quiet, shame grows. Shame, shame grows in the dark, shame grows in the silence. And so I want to be able to talk talk openly and honestly about it as like it's just a it's a real normal thing. I don't want to trivial trivialize the sin, but I don't want to strip shame of its power by being able to just talk openly about it and um you don't have to kind of like whisper about you know this.

SPEAKER_03 40:24

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:24

Um that's one thing I want to do. And we we also really want to provide environments where accountability can happen. And we also want to be able to know when we are in a position where uh there's too many layers here for us to be able to kind of address in normal accountability, like in a core group, and when to be able to say to a person, hey, uh, I love you. You you need to get help beyond me. And and we're quite comfortable saying that. And we've we say that a lot. We really think that you need to get some professional help, and that is good. We're also uh quite happy to champion other churches and other churches that that do things better than we do. And and I know that you have some uh some experience or some knowledge on uh Palmetto Street Church of God. Yep. Um tell us a little bit about that.

unknown 41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

So Palmetto Street Church of God has a Tuesday night meeting, um, celebrate recovery. Tim uh Warren. What's his name? The pastor in California, Rick Warren, took the uh 12 steps of addiction and really rewrote them in eight steps that are that are Christian, Christian-based, biblically based, and and essentially they address not just addiction per se, but really all um hurts, habits, and hang-ups is what they call it. And no human is without those. Okay. So we could all show up at this meeting on Tuesday nights. And so it's called celebrate recovery, and it's recovering from whatever your hurts, uh hiccups, and habits are. And uh that might be uh an addiction, it might be pornography, it might be depression, it might be codependency, whatever it is. Uh, Tuesday nights, 6:30 at uh at Palmetto Street Church of God. This is one thing they do, they do well. There's there's a community, uh, there's a recovery, strong recovery community there, and they they understand, they're they're helpful, they have a large group meeting, they have some training, they have a small group meeting where you can uh share your struggles, and they really provide good support for that.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

All right. Shout out to Palmetto Street Church of God. There you go. Thanks for what you're doing. Um, we're gonna speak openly, we're gonna provide an environments for accountability, we're going to happily, joyfully outsource other help. And um, another thing that we do as a church is when we can we really work to help fund people's um counseling when when they are unable to do that. That we want to put our money where our mouth is there. Uh huh. And we haven't been able to do it every time, but we've we've put a lot of money into that to help our people. Uh question in terms of advice. Uh question was what is my role as a friend or a family member to speak into a relationship, a relationship that is heading into divorce for what appears to be a scenario outside biblical permission. All right, that's the question. Rapid fire, I'll give some thoughts and then Adam again speak in. Uh so you have a friend or family member and they're heading towards divorce, and you just don't see biblical grounds. Uh, first, I would say a a good friend is gonna listen and listen and listen and listen and listen. There's some things that you think you know until we listen and we hear more. And uh so we listen and we reflectively listen. And reflectively listening is is gonna be hearing what the what the person says, trying to reflect it back to them to the point where they say yes. And until they say yes, you haven't really understood. Right. And so you're first gonna listen. Uh if we try to speak before we've listened, uh, then we're likely to speak into things that aren't relevant to what the person's actually um going through, and then we can actually miss the mark and burn break. So listen in a second as speak. Uh really oftentimes in these situations when uh when things are being talked about, silence is understood to be affirmation. If I'm telling you about, you know, I'm we're we're thinking about divorce, and you just kind of go, hmm, mmm, mmm, that sounds really hard. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's that's really frustrating. Yeah, I'm really sorry. What I'm hearing in that is you agree. Great. Yeah. And so I hear confirmation. It your silence feels like affirmation to me. And so I think you should listen. And I think you should also, if you really see um that there is not alignment between what it what is happening and what is biblical permission, uh then I think you should speak and do it with tender clarity, according to what you've understood about their situation and what scripture says.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

Absolutely. And you know, when you say listen reflectively, what you know, what I hear is, you know, Simon Sinek saying, listen for understanding, because your your goal is not just to hear them pour out the words. Your goal is to understand what's happening. What is the struggle this person has, that the spouse has that they have together, and to really understand the situation, because that's what, as you say, gives you the bridge to speak to speak into it. Um, if you can really understand what's happening, uh, that that is the the key. And so what this person does not need is just blind affirmation, and nor do they need you to come in and just kind of do a half-baked, throw a verse on them and walk away and then kind of wash your hands. They they need compassion, they need clarity, and they do need conviction, they need the word. And so to listen for understanding and to speak truth with tenderness, uh, uh, but and but also courage is so important and and and and and the role of a biblical friend. And there's a proverb in the end, people appreciate frankness more than flattery. They don't they don't need you to just kind of throw the dust on it either for right or for wrong, or for good or for ill. They they they they understanding and then a response. That's true fellowship at work.

SPEAKER_02 46:10

Yeah. So listen, speak, and then I would also say help. And there's a few ways that you can just put on your brain and think, how can I help here? Uh if you could say, hey, why don't you drop the kids, drop your kids off, and uh, we would we'd like to help you guys take a date night? That that helps. I'm just saying it fixes everything, but you you can help. Uh, watch the kids. You can help um get together regularly, and you don't have to have a counseling degree to be able to ask these sorts of questions. Question one, um, what kind of husband do you want to be? Question two, and what ways are you falling short? Okay, now then now I have what I need to know to be able to meet with you regularly and go, how'd you do this week? I know what kind of husband you want to be, right? How'd you do this week? How'd you fall short? And then let's get back on the horse so that you can show your wife that you love her in the way that she understands love. And I'm I'm I think uh psychologists and counselors and therapists, great and necessary, but you don't need a counseling degree to be able to do that, be able to help in that way.

SPEAKER_01 47:17

And honestly, yeah, there is definitely a point in which which counseling therapy is super helpful. Um and especially when there's multi-layers, when there's a lot of brokenness or this has been ongoing long term, et cetera, and that those layers need to be peeled back and understood. Uh, but there's also a garden variety friendship that you can provide that is just really helpful to kind of to weave the garden, to to, like you say, to ask them what is your vision of a beautiful marriage? What's your role in that? And how can I help you stay on track to do that?

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Yes, agree. All right. Uh, question regarding remarriage. If individuals who profess to be believers go through a divorce that is not biblically justified and later remarry, should their new relationship be considered sinful? What you think?

SPEAKER_01 48:08

No. God honors marriage. So once you have once you have divorced and remarried, uh this and you and you realize, oh man, my my last divorce was not biblical, or my second marriage was not whatever this is, whatever you realize about your past, it is in the past. Start now. Start where you are. Don't divorce your spouse and go back for a remarry. You know, start where you are and ask God's grace, you know, ask God's forgiveness and move forward. And so um, this is a there's a common scenario, even today, where missionaries go to a culture and the tribal chief comes to Christ and believes in Jesus and he has six wives. He's like, should I divorce five of them and just keep the one because of an like, no, keep your six wives, love all of them. Next generation, one wife, right? And and so um, this is actually a real scenario. Uh and so start today and thank God for his grace and move forward.

SPEAKER_02 49:03

All right, let me read a verse and make it harder for you, and then I want to hear your thoughts. Yep. Uh we already read Matthew 5. This is true. It he alludes to this in Matthew 19 as well, but it was said, whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce. But I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchasity or pornea, makes her, NIV would say, the victim of adultery, but then still later says, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. So uh I hear what you said, and I'm trying to reconcile that with, okay, well, he whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. So is is Jesus saying that the the new marriage is in a perpetual state of adultery?

SPEAKER_01 49:54

Short answer, no. And this is where you need to get beneath the layers of what's being said. Um what Jesus is warning against in terms of adultery is again, it he's saying we will not justify wife swapping. You can't just hope she gets divorced or even manipulate that marriage into a divorce and then grasp snatch that woman up. That would be adultery. Um and and and I so I think what Jesus is addressing is saying if you've done that uh and you are unrepentant, yes, you you uh are are living in, I would say God will honor the marriage, but you have done a you have done wrong. And it needs to be acknowledged, repented of, but at that point you go forward, not back. And so Jesus is addressing the heart of the person.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

All right. We're gonna wrap up here with uh two last questions. And the questions are um what do you do if you feel like your marriage is hanging by a thread? And then uh what are some tips to just help your marriage thrive? All right, so I'll I'll speak to the what do you do if you just feel like your marriage is hanging by a thread? I want to turn to First Peter. First Peter, I think, is gonna help us here. I'll read that in a second. But first, um I don't I want to be cautious against giving an over-spiritualized answer, but I also don't want to uh pretend like spiritual like there's not a spiritual element. Okay. So I said this in the sermon and I mean it. I've been praying for our people, especially those who are in struggling mar marriages, that Colossians 1 would be true. And Colossians 1, he prays that they would be strengthened with all power according to his glorious might for the attaining of all two things steadfastness and patience. And so I I really would say go before the Lord and day by day say, Lord, would you strengthen me with all power according to your glorious might for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience? Be what I need today to honor you, to love you, to obey you, buy your power, for your glory. And uh so I don't want to over-spiritualize, but I also don't want to under-spiritualize. Ask the Lord for it. And I think that's uh a a New Testament word for that would be not just prayer, but the New Testament word for that would be abiding.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Can I say one thing about that? Yeah, sorry, I know you got the rest of your answer to go, but I I think a hundred percent true. Um, you know, when Jesus made the case to his disciples that it was not so from the beginning, in the beginning God called them male and female, and they should be married forever, right? And the disciples are shocked by this and say, It's better not to marry. Yeah, like who can do that? Who can do that? And I think that's kind of our society's like, who can do this anymore? You know, and and Jesus says, with man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. And so, to your point, uh I I, you know, when when I wrestle and I think, who can do this? And marriage is hard for everybody and me too. And uh, and I'm married to an incredible woman. And so uh I I have to I have to just remind myself, his grace is sufficient for me. Like his grace is sufficient, and white knuckling it in my in my flesh, yeah, nobody can do that forever. Or if you can, not in a fruitful and beautiful way. But whatever the struggle is, whatever the challenges in front of you in your marriage, his grace is sufficient. And it doesn't mean you won't feel the weight. It doesn't mean it won't be hard, but it does mean it that life can come from death. That that's what God does. And so yes, his absolutely start with God.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

Amen. Uh second, uh, seek help with a posture of humility. If you if all you do is seek help, but you're not ready to um change and ready to hear hard words, then you're not actually seeking help. You're trying to check a box. Uh so seek help with a posture of humility. So I would say, husbands, if your wife is saying, I'd really like to go to counseling, here's your answer. Yes. Let's go. I'm there. And your posture is humility. I I'm working, I actually asked somebody last week to mentor me. And here's what I committed to to the guy if if he says yes. I said, uh if you mentor me, here's what here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do whatever you say. I'm already committing to that. Whatever you say, I'm gonna do. I'm gonna pay for our meals. And uh what was the third one? Or maybe yeah, it was just those two. I'm I'm I'm already committed. I'm gonna do what you say, and I'm gonna pay for your meals. Uh that that is just trying to go. I'm I'm gonna have a posture of humility, not defensiveness. Uh, I'm gonna assume he's got wisdom that I don't have, and so seek help with a posture of humility. Seek help in your core group, seek help in counseling, seek help and have a posture of humility. And uh the third thing is keep applying the principles of love and owning your role in your relationship, owning your responsibility in your relationship. Husbands have five words in the New Testament love, nourish, cherish, understand, honor. Those are the five words from Ephesians 5 and 1 Peter. Love, nourish, cherish, understand, honor. Keep applying the principles of love, even when it's hard. And Paul specifically speaks to the wives in terms of the hard in 1 Peter 3. He says this in the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands, so that even if any of them, as husbands, are disobedient to the word, they may be one without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior. Your adornment must not be merely external, braiding of the hair and wearing gold jewelry or putting on dresses, but let it be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. So he says, Wives, I want you to own your role where you are prioritizing holiness over beauty. And he started that everything I just read with in the same way. Right. So, in the same way as what? If you go right up above that, he goes to this. I want to read this this is the model for marriage, both for husbands and wives. In this same way, here's here's what he says. For you've been called to this very purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in his steps.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

Who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in his mouth, and while being reviled, he did not revile in return. While suffering, he uttered no threats, but kept entrusting himself to him who judges righteously. And he himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness, for by his wounds you were healed. For you were continually straying like sheep, but now you have returned to the shepherd and garden of your souls. In the same way, you wives, be submissive.

SPEAKER_03 57:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Uh so in what way? In a way that is doing the next right thing, even when there's suffering, and trust the way he says it is uh kept entrusting himself to him who judges righteously. Even when that meant great difficulty. In the same way, husbands and wives, we keep doing the right thing, owning our role, husbands, love, nurse, cherish, understand, honor, as Jesus did, entrusting my soul to him who judges righteously. So keep going, is what I'm saying. Look to Jesus, keep going.

SPEAKER_01 57:44

Amen. And um, as I think about, you know, what can people do to if if your marriage is hanging, to how can you help it to thrive? Um, you know, we started with with God and grace. That is the starting point. Um, I think, you know, and you mentioned perspective, mentor, friend, someone to come alongside, give you perspective. You know, if you were thinking about um weight, and if you thought if you thought about it's not entirely uh one-to-one, but you know, you think about sexual appetite and say actual appetite, like you know, if you wanted to lose weight or be fit, what would you do? Well, it wouldn't just be one thing. Like it's it's not just one thing to have a great marriage or one thing to stay pure. It's it's life is complex and there are many layers to it. And so there would, if you were trying to be fit, you would, you know, you would sleep well, you would um go to the gym a certain number of times a week, you would do weights, you would do aerobic, you would do diet, you would, you know, maybe join Weight Watchers and have a community, right? There would be multiple layers to it. And the same thing is true with in marriage. You know, the and the best defense is a good offense. And so take, take these steps to add layers to health in your marriage, recognizing it's hard, recognizing that we are hard-headed and hard-hearted, uh, and do what you need to do to maintain, think about a garden or again, your fitness of your body or fitness of a garden. It takes continual weeding, it takes feeding, it takes watering, it takes sun. There's multiple layers of health involved. So start with the word, feel yourself, um, be in community, have some guys keeping you accountable to the right things. Just do the right good things daily, and then if needed, uh do bigger things as needed. Go to counseling, do a marriage weekend, you know, take bigger steps. Um, but the good news is that we have the power to do things every day that will lead to health. And you can't control your spouse, but you can offer a husband or a wife that is loving and caring and self-sacrificial. And you can do your part. And if we all did that, if we all came to give rather than to get, man, our marriages would be incredible. So do your part and and and feed the health of the marriage day to day.

SPEAKER_02 59:51

Yeah, and and to give like uh an example, we we just need to learn what we can do that our spouse understands as oh, that sound that feels like love to me. Yeah. And that is a lot of times very small things. So, sweet D, if she's still listening uh at this point in the podcast, here's here's what my wife loves a long hug before I leave anywhere. Okay. Yeah. If I'm about to walk out the door, like ready to go, she that's when she wants a hug, like right when I'm walking out the door.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:27

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:28

So uh I show my wife love in the smallest of ways. It can be like marriage conference, like you said. But for my wife, here's here's what really matters to her. Like a good like five to ten second hug. Yeah.

unknown 1:00:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:42

When I'm leaving and when I come home.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

I really think uh the the the three minutes before you leave somewhere, the three minutes when you come back from somewhere in the home, those are like, those are critical.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

Those are critical six minutes. Yes. And uh find out what what does your spouse love and really cherish in those three minutes before you leave, three minutes after? Do it. Yes. And and that'll be the small things that really help. Um, all right. Hey, uh, thank you for your thoughts. And uh I hope this is helpful in terms of equipping the saints to think biblically about God, life, and culture. And that would be part of helping the saints love and obey God by his power, for his glory, and helping others do the same. And um want to give you a quick plug. You're doing a podcast uh monthly. Yep. Tell us about that real quick, and then we're done.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

You bet. So um doing a uh world lit review called The Greats, and we're just um uh me and Colton Cawthon are going through That's from Jack's books. Yeah, from owner of Jack's books, uh going through all the great literature, all the way back uh from Homer, uh Plato, Aristotle, and then up through the the first millennia, second millennia, the great thinkers of all time from a Christian perspective, so that we a lot of times people are thinking, you know, is Jesus really the only way? Or how do you compare with the great world thinkers of of all time? And and isn't he just one of many voices? And so we're coming to those other great works of literature, great works of religion, and giving them their fair shake to understand them on their own terms. And then how do they stand up so that we can say, you know what? Um we actually have read the Hindu uh scriptures, we actually have read Buddha, we actually have read Darwin, we actually have read uh, you know, all these all these great thinkers through history and said, you know, um, we look at this and we still believe. And and so what we are doing this uh this month gonna be coming out. One of the greatest thinkers, literally of all time, he invented modern thinking, Plato. So that's coming up next.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

And where can people listen to that and find that?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:35

If you look for the greats, um uh Colton and Doc on Spotify or um uh YouTube, uh, you can find us.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

All right, sweet. Hey, thank you, and we'll see you later. Yep.