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On Conscience (1 Cor 8) | The Sandhurst Podcast
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On this week's episode, Will and Adam discuss matters of conscience from 1 Corinthians 8.
All right. Thanks everyone for joining us. Adam, thanks for being here. Man, let's do it. We get to talk about God, the Bible, and we know why we're doing this. Why are we doing this?
SPEAKER_03To speak biblically about God, life, and culture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we'll equip the saints to think biblically about God, life, and culture. That's that's it. And we get to do it here. We also get to do it just uh in normal life. Uh we hung out this weekend. Beautiful time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, backyard fire pits and and and good times, just watching that uh the fire uh blaze, the meat cook, the T-bone over the fire with some venison.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, beautiful time just enjoying.
SPEAKER_03Was I doing push-ups when I was there? Push-ups or running running on the block or something. Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I'm still hitting the push-ups 500 a week. Um, and but now I'm doing eight miles a week running as well. So I actually left your house. Oh wait. You know what time it was? 10:30. Yeah, like late. And had to, I said, Hey, sweetie, I gotta run, sweetie. I did that last night too. So I'm a little behind.
SPEAKER_03I do mostly biking and swimming, but yeah, you keep running.
SPEAKER_00All right, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Miserable.
SPEAKER_00All right. Hey, well, thanks for joining us. Uh, here's what we're doing today. Uh, we are we're in 1 Corinthians 8. That's what we just taught on Sunday. And on at first uh past it's about meat sacrifice to idols, but uh then you dig a little deeper and it's not so much just about that, it's about conscience.
SPEAKER_03Because the meat sacrifice to idols feels at first very remote, like what is it? Why is this even why are we even talking about this? But actually, it is crazily relevant.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And then so you dig a little deeper, and then it's about conscience, yes, but it's about love. Yeah. And then you dig a little bit deeper, you get to chapter 10. What we saw in the sermon is it's not even just about that, it's about God being glorified in our city. So it's like truly cosmic.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so here's here's what we're gonna do. Um, we're going to to recap, okay, let's get a biblical theology of our conscience. What does the Bible say about that? Uh, what are some conscience issues? And then, Adam, I want to answer some questions, stronger, weaker brother stuff. And then I want to pick one of our gray areas that we talked about on Sunday. It's it's gonna be education. And uh I want to talk about okay, how do we process uh education? Homeschool, private school, uh public school. Should we be doing one of those? Is it would the Bible direct us? Should our consciences sort of push us in one of those directions? And then um, and then I want to actually elevate one thing at the end over the formal education that whatever route we decide, here's what we can't uh kind of fudge on. It's gonna be from Ephesians 6. So that's where we're going. Thanks for joining us. Let's do it. All right. Um, so uh as we're trying to think biblically about God, life, and culture, um, we are right now in 1 Corinthians 8. Yep. And 1 Corinthians 8 on the surface, it's about meat sacrifice to idols.
SPEAKER_03I love this topic because it takes us away from Christianity as do's and don'ts. Here's these two lists. You know, do what the angel says, avoid what the demon says, and puts us back into the messy middle of follow the spirit and follow the word and do your best as God leads you.
SPEAKER_00Yep. Let's start with biblical theology of conscience. Uh we read about it in Romans, we read about it Romans 2, Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8. It's really in a lot of places, but here's in in a nutshell, uh, our conscience is our God-given internal court. Okay. Um, the the the inside of me that either rules for or against the decision. So it's our internal court. It's God given, but it's not always God honoring. Yeah. So I can have a clear conscience about something that God actually hates. Yeah. And uh so it's God-given, not always god honoring. And so it needs to be shaped by God's word. And it becomes, my conscience, becomes relevant in issues that aren't necessarily clear-cut commands in the Bible. Yeah. When there's not a thou shall or thou shalt not.
SPEAKER_03And so this is important because not just Christians, but all humans have a conscience. And this is something that we are born with as in the image of God. And God's uh conscience is perfect and holy, ours is broken, and even when we come to Christ, we still are in a process of growing in sanctification and re-transforming our hearts back into the image of God. You know, Plato put the human in three parts his mind or cerebral man, his gut, visceral man, and then his heart, right? And where the courage kind of it kind of referees between your mind and your gut and figures out what is right and right, which path to take. And I think that the the New Testament and Scripture really does well to say this is the seat of the human. So conscience.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and and conscience, um, you know, like we're saying it can be out of line with God's word and to the point where scripture will say uh that actually your conscience can become seared. Yeah. And um, we don't want that. Yeah. Uh we don't want our internal court to be so ruled, so corrupted um uh that there's no reflection of God's heart in our conscience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, if you ever um have had the unfortunate like having a burn, right? That scars into scar tissue and you lose feeling on that part of your skin, that's not a good thing. Like you are vulnerable to injury there. And some people, their souls are like that. They've been seared by experiences, by hurts, by injuries, by scars, and and they just they don't have a feeling there. Um, and so the the the the the Russians actually had a phrase for this called the Zamarozhny, which is the frost bitten. They were the frostbitten. I mean, they had frostbitten hearts, like and they just literally could do what they did with no feeling. And we uh all humanity agrees that's a bad idea, but God takes us another step and says, let's not just make make you a generally good or bad person, let's make you a holy person and let's focus these things according to God's nature and design.
SPEAKER_00Yep. All right, so conscience, it's relevant when there's not a clear-cut command in the Bible. We gave 15, and I want to add a sixteenth, and see if there's anything that you're like, man, that should have been on the list. Okay, so here are uh fifteen or maybe sixteen things.
SPEAKER_03And you're talking about sort of gray areas that are that that you know that affect conscience, that's not a moral right or more, there's no biblical command addressing these.
SPEAKER_00Right. And I'm not saying there's no uh that the Bible is silent on these issues. I'm just saying that there's no clear-cut command around these issues. Okay. So here they are alcohol, smoking, tattoos, and piercings, gambling, you know, can you play the lottery? Uh Sabbath, activity on Sunday, dancing, media use, so that'd be movies, music, modesty, words. What words can you say? Um humor, education, holidays. Can you celebrate Halloween? Right. Or can you just do Halloween but not celebrate it? And we need to like turn off our okay. Hallelujah festival. You know, bring all the bring everyone to the church. Uh attending a gay wedding, birth control or IVF, politics, and then uh one the the 16th, a little bonus that what that we didn't talk about on Sunday, that I thought, uh, this this caused a lot of division. There's no clear cut coming here, is disciplining your children. Uh spanking timeout, you know, there's a lot of gray area here and a lot of um division that comes over how do how how do you discipline your your children. Right. So um any more that you would add or any of these that stick out to you is like, man, uh I'm I bet when I bet that one was kind of hard for our church to have on the list of gray area.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I don't know. Um, you know, when when when we went over it yesterday in the service, I was thinking that they were all actually relevant to different in and it might a lot of times it's season of life too, uh what season of life you're in for something that may feel like an important gray area or a less important gray area. And so um, but I think they all are they're all great.
SPEAKER_00Okay, let's hit some of the questions. Uh the question one was regarding the weaker brother. And what is the weaker brother? And is weaker better? And um, so the the exact question I want to I want to read it because I thought it was phrased really well. Um, is the weaker better or is the goal to have a stronger conscience that is more gracious, yet lay down those rights when in a more public arena, since we may be around those who have a weaker conscience? So is weaker better, or is it better to be stronger yet more gracious? That's that's the question. Right. Right. Um so we are we're Bible people. Yep. So we're gonna uh answer life questions with Bible answers. And so I want to read we we taught 1 Corinthians 8, and Romans 14 also brings this up. And actually, uh 1 Corinthians 8 doesn't talk about a stronger brother. Uh it talks about a weaker brother, and then uh f Romans 14 is where we read about a stronger and a weaker brother, or weaker and stronger.
SPEAKER_01Gotcha.
SPEAKER_00So uh I'm gonna read the first six verses. Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. We could read that verse again. Yep. One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. That's a bummer. Yeah. The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day observes it for the Lord, and he who eats does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God, and he who eats not for the Lord, he does not eat and gives thanks to God. So um the Romans 14 brings up the stronger and the weaker brother, and what he does not do is elevate one above the other. Okay, so it's not better to be weaker, it's not better to be stronger. Um the the goal is what he says to live with a clear conscience and with love towards those who have a different conscience. And so I want to read a few other things from here, um, Adam, and then let I want to have you jump in. Yep. Um Love for those who have a different conscience. I want to pick up in Romans 14, verses 13 to 15, it says, Therefore, let let us not judge one another any more, but rather determine this: not to put an obstacle or stumbling block in another brother's way. I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself. But to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to what? Love. You're no longer walking according to love. So what's better, stronger or weaker? Well, uh, neither is better. It's about living in a clear conscience under God's word and um and with love towards people who have different conscience. Yeah. And what he's repeatedly said, what love doesn't do in regard to um people with differing consciences, love doesn't regard with contempt, is what he said. Love doesn't judge, and love doesn't put a stumbling block in the way. One more set of verses and then jump in, Adam. Uh verses 21 to 22 is weaker better. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother or did I I might have read that wrong. It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. So that to me is just crystal clear. Is weaker better? No. Is stronger better? No. What matters is having a clear conscience under God's word before God and living uh with sensitivity towards a a brother or sister in love who has a a differing conscience.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. First of all, I do want to clarify because this was kind of confusing to me early on. Like, what is a stumbling block? Does that mean if I do something that offends someone else, that is a stumbling block? And the answer is no. Um, what it is is when um if I do something and that offends someone else, let's say we're out at a restaurant, I have a glass of wine, someone else thinks I shouldn't, and they come over, they're offended, and they say you shouldn't have a glass of wine, that's a stumbling block for me. No, it's not. Um what they're because what what's happening in that moment, what would be a stumbling block is if then I said, hey, why don't you sit down with us and you should have it too? And and and what he's saying is if you use your freedom, just impose that freedom on others and then cause them to do things that they feel are wrong in their hearts, they're dishonoring to God, that is what's creating a stumbling block. So it really is not about the action, it's about the heart response to that action in these, in these matters of of of e daphoria, right? Or or or that they're not clearly specified in scriptures. So a stumbling block is to encourage someone to do something they think is wrong. That's what that means. And so it doesn't mean you have to to submit to everybody's judginess. That's not it. Because what you do then, if you do submit to that in, is you are affirming their legalism. And that is absolutely improper. Cannot do that. So um, but at this we can't say, yeah, you're right. I'm a better Christian if I don't do this.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna agree and um maybe disagree a little bit with that. Okay. Um I agree that there came a point where you're affirming someone's le uh like their um legalistic tendencies in a way that's unhealthy. But I also think like Paul is Paul is going it's not just about the intention, it is about the action. And if eating meat is gonna cause a brother to stumble, if it is gonna influence them towards eating, then I will never eat meat again.
SPEAKER_03So yeah, I agree. I agree with that.
SPEAKER_00And uh so I think like it could be an appropriate application to say, you know what, I don't like like we're we're both we work in a church, we're pastors. Yeah. Uh it could be uh, I think a reasonable application of this to go, when I'm out, I'm not going to drink alcohol because I know that by my action of drinking, someone could see me, and that could influence them to um to defile their own conscience, uh, if their conscience would rule against that. So I I just have maybe a little bit more um see it maybe a little bit less black and white.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03And I think also one reason um also to clarify why Paul thinks it's so important not to do that. And you think, well, why why not? It seems like it seems like the office should be true. Like Paul should actually, when that person comes, and let's just say that you know they're concerned, like, I don't I don't know if you you should be drinking. And there they really are an honest struggler. Because you would think that the thing to say with these, like, you know, it's okay, it's not our sin, have a seat and let's expand your conscience, right? Let's make you a stronger brother. And you'd think in and Paul pulls back rather than leaning in. Like, why that feels to me counterintuitive, but I think this might be the reasoning. If Paul at this moment says, you know what, you should train that person to uh ignore their conscience in matters that um are debatable, they'll learn to ignore their conscience and carry that over to matters that are not debatable. And so you you the reason Paul is leaning into that and saying, let's submit to that and be tender with that, uh, is that we want to train them to listen to their conscience because they're growing, right? And and hopefully in time their conscience will get stronger, but we don't want to train them to ignore their conscience in areas that are debatable so that they are ready to obey the spirit when they get to matters that are not.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's well said. And so trying to answer the question is weaker better? And no, weaker is not necessarily better. Uh stronger is not necessarily better. What we're trying to have is a conscience that's aligned with scripture and then that we live consistent with that conscience. Here, let me propose something that I do think is could be better. Um to it could be it could reflect a good wisdom to live more narrow than your conscience. Uh I'll give a couple examples. Um you could have a clear conscience about drinking alcohol. Yeah, that's that's a biblical freedom. Okay. And then yet choose to live more narrow than that conscience because of either family history or because of some sort of uh fleshly propensity that you know you have bent towards abuse of that. So to to live more narrow than your conscience, I think can reflect uh good wisdom. Yeah. And so you just gotta know yourself. Yeah. Uh there is a guy who was, this was a long time ago, the young single guy at Sandhurst, and uh he was we were at lunch and he was like, um, man, I just really feel like I uh w wanted to have been be reaching out to people. And uh so so I decided I was gonna go to Hooters. Oh God. And um and show the the women who are working there that they can be treated with dignity and respect. And you know, I was just gonna keep my eyes in their eyes. And yeah, and uh I just laughed and I thought, okay, um, in terms of conscience, I think by conscience, I would be free to eat there, but I would live more narrow than my conscience because I don't think that would reflect good wisdom for me to uh to be there. Uh just gotta know yourself that there's some things that you may be free to do by your conscience that would be unwise for you to do. So I'm saying that uh conscience is a layer, but it's not the only layer. You go from conscience, what am I free to do based on God's word? And then what would be wise to do based on my own propensities? Right.
SPEAKER_03And so, like, and take, I mean, uh an athlete, right, who um, let's just say he's got a uh a uh a pulled muscle in his leg, and the coach knows this. And so he wants to to train the athlete to be sensitive to it. So he's not gonna smack him on the leg, you know, right there, you know, to to to compliment on a good run because he realizes he's tender in that spot. Um, he's gonna lay off that and slap him on the back, you know, or whatever. And and or vice versa. If he's got a pulled muscle in his back, maybe he'll slap him on the leg just to say, hey, good job. And he'll avoid that tender spot, not always, but for that season while he's still recovering. And that's true for for people who may have more tender areas in certain ways because we just don't know people's histories. People are complex and and and they're the way they understand um righteousness and sin and the way they've experienced things in the past all add up to what their conscience guide guides them to do. And God knows that person is healing at a certain rate and a certain pace in a certain direction, and it's not uniform. In fact, it's unique to every individual. And so respecting that journey and understanding that journey is, I think, really useful and fruitful in assisting the spirit and work in other people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, agreed. Uh so as I was just kind of processing this. I think there's four layers to consider in terms of everything that we're talking about. Layer one, what does God say? That's right. Layer two, what does my conscience allow? Layer three, what does love demand? Layer four, what would wisdom say? Yeah. So there's what what does God say? What does my conscience allow? What what does love demand? And then what would what would wisdom say? And I think again, that that may point you to living more narrowly than even your conscience would allow.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely. There's just there's more layers than right and wrong. And I think you pointed out correctly, and it's worth bears repeating in in the servers that just because God allows something doesn't mean every Christian now should just pour themselves into it. You know, it it it allowance is great, that's wonderful, and it allows for the breadth of humanity, which is wonderfully diverse and complex. But each of us is called by God to understand ourselves, our journeys, and to understand what we understand as how do we honor God, how do we love our neighbor as ourself? And and that will be really fashioned by the culture you grew up in because some every culture is reflects certain biblical principles, and every culture breaks them in different ways. Uh and so we have to understand what are the cultural things that we have that we grew up with that sort of are maybe more naturally aligned with God's word, and were the ones that are maybe less so, and then each individual, and then try to use wisdom in in keeping a path that is respectful of God and honoring of your neighbor.
SPEAKER_00Sanctification. Sanctification, growth. That's good. Question two. What should oh, this is a good question for you. All right, you are over life groups. So what should I do if I'm a life group leader and I want to have alcohol at an event at my life group? Can I have alcohol at this type of event through the church?
SPEAKER_03So this is a great example of a way to love your people, right? And to know your people. And so uh the short answer is you are free to do that biblically. So kind of going through the uh the layers.
SPEAKER_00So we would not forbid it. No, correct.
SPEAKER_03Um, but because Paul says, you know, whether you eat or drink, whatever, you know, it's it's it's it's that isn't that is not what makes you righteous or unrighteous. But the people in your group have a various set of backgrounds and experiences that are going to impact the way they approach alcohol. And so it it would be as a leader, my counsel to you is know your people. And if you have a question about any of them, talk to them individually and uh and say, hey, we're considering, not saying we are, we're considering. Serving some alcohol at this event, would that be a concern for you? And and and give them a wide angle to say, yeah. Don't don't say like, um, that's that's gonna be okay, right? Like don't don't frame it in a way that pushes them to say yes. Frame it in a way that gives them full freedom to say, you know, we we don't have to. We were considering it. Do you have any experience with alcohol in your past? What is your view? How would you uh approach that? And and give them a a lot of room to say, I've got a concern about that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's that's good. So would we forbid it? No. Would we caution it heavily? Yes. And I would just go back to the the four layers that I just went through. Okay. When it comes to serving life, uh serving alcohol at a life group thing. Um well, I would say if it was on campus here, we would not do that. Yeah. But um uh but what does God say? Does God say anything about uh drinking at life group? No. Okay. So uh what does my conscience allow? Well, I think the person who's asking the question, their conscience, their internal core says uh for me personally, this would be fine. Question three, what does love demand? And I think what love demands is exactly what you said. Don't send out a group message that's saying is anybody gonna ruin the party by saying that they're not comfortable with this? Right. Even though it's okay. Yeah, even though it's okay. Weaker brothers. Uh but to like send a text individually uh to find out. Yeah. And I like the way you you're saying, you know, let's let's leave a wide angle for people to be able to say no. I wonder like if you could say say it something like, um, it's important to me that everybody be able to have come and have a great time, and was wondering if uh if alcohol would have a negative or uh negative impact on your experience. Maybe, maybe that would be the way to ask it. Yeah. Um and then uh but but then you know that's what love would demand, what would wisdom do? Uh the reason I'd caution it heaven heavily is because it is it is possible, especially well, it's just possible that you'd be trying to host a life group event and that you thought, well, everybody's just gonna drink responsibly, responsibly, and then and then one person doesn't.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00And then what was intended to be something fun and good and happy and becomes uh very much overshadowed by the one person who did that thing and then started acting that way. Right. And then uh so uh those those are the four levers levels. What what what does God say? What does my conscience allow? What does love demand? And what does wisdom say?
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and and plus it gives you a great opportunity to have those conversations and you might you might learn something about the people in your group. You know, if someone speaks up and says, well, there's this thing, you're like, wow, okay, and it would actually open up another uh avenue for care, for ministry, for eyes, for accountability, for relationship, for and for for healing. So I I I I think um I'm not gonna say recommend do going that direction, yeah, because then you can find out how people are doing without it. Yeah, we're not recommending, but we're saying We're also not forbidding. We're not forbidding. But it it it would actually, it could be uh an opportunity to have questions, to conversations about really deep things with people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Heavy caution is the words I would use. Uh next question. Will gave a couple examples where he and Danielle's consciences were the same, were aligned. What do you do if you and your spouse have different consciences and one tends to be the weaker and the other tends to be stronger? What would Will have done, for example, if Danielle was the only one who cared about the language and their life group? Okay, so if you didn't hear the sermon, the story in a nutshell is we were part of a life group and it was a great life group, and we were together for a lot of years, and so there's a high levels of comfort, and so people uh started um just using language that was that their conscience was free to use, but our kind of it would have defiled our conscience to use that kind of language, but cuss words. And so what would we do if Sweet D's conscience was weaker and um more sensitive to that? Yeah. But my conscience was fine with it. Uh what how would we have proceeded and how would that apply more generally?
SPEAKER_03Um, Sweet D, it looks like you need to write them and ask them about that.
SPEAKER_00Um so actually, uh that is the scenario that it was. It it is true that it defiles it would defile my conscience to use curse words. Um but it also is true that it didn't really bother me that much in Life Group. And I just kind of felt like didn't really bother me, but it did bother her. And so the way it looked for us uh trying trying to go, okay, what are the principles of love and being a husband who's going to love and protect the the route that I took is um trying to represent her, but on behalf of us, yeah, not her. And uh it didn't really bother me, but I wanted Sweetie to be able to come to Life Group and so I I used we language. It would really help us enjoy our experience here if that language wasn't part of the um our life group.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's a great example that uh that all of this really starts not uh in in a group or in a church, but you know, in your heart and in your own home, right? And so, you know, you have to decide, okay, Lord, where am I at? And then with your spouse, where are we at? And those aren't that far apart, like those those count very closely. And so the the we language is absolutely appropriate. So for I think for for for a husband or a wife to really understand their spouse where they're coming from, and um and stand with them in those areas is is is a great starting point.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so in terms of out like examples outside of that, when you when you you're married to someone and your consciences don't align, uh here are the questions. What does God say? What does my conscience allow? And what does love demand? And love never demands somebody else defile their conscience for your whatever reason, for your your for your freedom.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so uh let's let's take movies. Love would not demand and say, oh, you know, it's it's no big deal, and and encourage or influence or ask or demand my wife to watch something that defiled her conscience.
SPEAKER_03Because that is like the definition of a stumbling block. That is like literally, it's it's not that bad. It's really okay. Even though you don't think it is, you should do it with me. That is exactly the definition of a stumbling block.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so what is our definition of love? Love is the steadfast sacrificial zeal that seeks the what? True good. The true good. And it is never someone's true good to influence them to defile their conscience. Right. So uh that's what love demands. Um that that you uh do not be a stumbling block, that you um give up your free.
SPEAKER_03I mean, these are kind of personal issues. Let's say it doesn't involve the life group or the church or other people. It really just is just kind of our life, you know, and you know, one thinks you should spank and one thinks shouldn't, you know, or you know, one thing's public school, one thing's homeschool. I mean, the just kind of more like really that it's an in-house uh thing. Um, but it's more than just an opinion. It's it's kind of raised to the level of a conviction, maybe even on both sides. I'm convicted that we should be a part of public school to be a witness in our community. I'm convicted that we should do homeschool to be a greater impact in our children's lives. So it's not just like, well, right or left. Like this is a these are deep issues and and that that is really tender when you come to that as a husband and wife.
SPEAKER_00That's a great sort of distinction. And I I want to chase that a little bit. And um, I mean, we were gonna go there anyway, in terms of education and even some discipline as well. So when it's I guess to to phrase what you just said in a question, what do you do when it's not just conscience?
SPEAKER_03But behind that conscience is a deeply held conviction about something that you said is not right or left, but really is well, I guess it wouldn't have to be right or wrong, but like it's not right or wrong biblically, but it may feel right or wrong to you, which I think is in some ways a conscience issue. But it's a it's a it's a conscience uh that feels a certain way, but based on a conviction of like like I bel I have a belief behind this.
SPEAKER_00What do you do there? Um it's tough.
SPEAKER_03You talk, you listen, and then Yeah, I I I mean this is this comes down to some basic conflict management, right? Like, because it essentially it's a conflict. Um and the the the the core goal of any conflict is resolution, but the the the core approach to get to resolution is is understanding, right? So it's it's not just arguments, it's not data points. It's I want to understand what not just what my spouse believes, but why they believe it. What's behind that conviction? Is it is it sort of tech is it biblically, but like I've got this verse, is it I have an experience? Is it I have a perspective? Uh, you know, what's kind of in there? But A, because the goal is to understand your spouse, but B, you may learn something, you may shift when you actually see where your spouse is coming from. And this happened for us for Heather and me with finances when we had two different approaches to finances, and I've maybe not convictionally, but at least practically. And um, the more, and I and it really annoyed me because she was really like, you know, very detailed, and I was just more like, let's just make it, it'll work out. You know, I was kind of, you know, on the free bird. She was the hardliner, and I just thought, I'm right, basically. And um, the more she laid it out for me, and when I've when I finally got over myself and kind of sat down, took a breath, and opened up my heart a little bit, I realized, wow, I'm not gonna say she's right. Like we're both have good elements, it's not a right-wrong, but man, there's a lot of merit in what she's doing. And it really helped us, I think, meet in the middle to where I would I've now adopted a lot of her uh hardliner tendencies with uh related to finances. And it has, I think, matured and deepened and helped me personally, but also brought us together as a couple. But just understanding what was behind that with her, it wasn't just fear, it wasn't just her, you know, upbringing, uh, it was actually wisdom. And but it took me a minute to get there.
SPEAKER_00The the core attitude is humility and and trust. And um well, let's let's apply it here to education and we'll we'll see if some of these thoughts kind of um develop a little bit more for us. Um so in terms of education, there's uh there's no clear-cut command on whether you should do private school, whether you should do homeschool, whether you should do public school. And so people's internal court is going to um is going to form come to different conclusions, and there's going to be a lot of convictions uh that undergird that decision. Yeah. And so uh again, why why I wanted to chase this is, you know, of all the 16 things that I read off, well we could chase any of them, and maybe we will in uh other podcasts. But I'm just I've been hearing a lot of parents uh talking about what are we gonna do next year for school because um you gotta register for school right now. Right. Um just kind of in the air. And I'll also the other reason I want to talk about it is because this can cause a lot of judgment in a church community.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_03There's so many layers to the decision of where you go education, but oftentimes if there's a convictional or a conscience feeling like d a lot of times it's like apples and oranges. They're taking two different layers and kind of claiming their turf. Like this is the most important layer, this is the most important layer. So like think about like the way um parents would think about a youth group. Um, one, you know, if we're looking to hire a youth minister, which we are, and if you are, apply. Um and what we need to find is a place where the kids feel safe. That's what one parent says. We just need to have a safe place because the world's so scary, it's so horrible. They need to be able to just go somewhere where they're just where they just feel unloved and protected. That's one thing. Another thing is, man, there's just so much lies in the world. We need to have somewhere where those kids can go and hear the truth. You know, okay, so well, is it safe about being safe, or is it about getting the truth? Well, the man, there are just so many bad people out there. We need to have someplace where our kids can go and find good friends, you know, and sort of socially connect to people who will uh encourage and strengthen them. Well, now it's about good friends. So is the main thing to be have a safe place, is the main thing to get God's truth, or is the main thing to develop godly friends? Well, they're all important, you know, I mean, in different ways, in different levels, but they're, you know, you can die on one of those mountains or not. And the same is true with education.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think that's actually a phenomenal example example of how you can share similar values, but put different weight in those values. Yeah. And and I think there has to be freedom to be able to say just because I value uh one thing more doesn't mean I don't value those other things. Or that I'm right. Yeah. Yeah. And the values and in terms of how I weight the values. So um uh let me throw out some oversimplified stereotypes that uh that I think come around each of the schools, you know, public, private, and homeschool. And uh the reason I think they're unhelpful is because a a bad way to make a decision is out of fear. Yeah. And these stereotypes can actually can, I think, promote a level of fear. Well, I don't want my kid to be that, and so I'm not gonna do that.
SPEAKER_03So Well, and and to to your fear point, fear is very motivating. And and and in fact, I mean, research shows us that the fear of loss is far greater than the hope of gain, uh, in in like in financial terms, the fear of investing. Most people invest not to lose as opposed to trying to gain. And the same is true in many areas of life, including education.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh you can tell me if you think there's other stereotypes that are around these, but the the oversimplified stereotype of a homeschooler is socially awkward, doesn't know how to relate to people. The oversimplified stereotype for a private schooler is preppy entitled. Spoiled. Spoiled, you know, rich, you know. And uh the the stereotype for the public schooler often can be um a little bit of a a wounded warrior. And and that's language that I've heard a lot, that it's like, oh, you think you're sending your kid off to be a missionary in the school, but what you're really what you're gonna get back is a wounded warrior. And uh so I don't want my kid to be socially awkward, so I'm not gonna homeschool him, or I don't want my kid to be to be or to be viewed as preppy entitled, so I can't do I can't do that. I can't do private school, or um, I don't want my kid to be a wounded warrior, so I can't do public school, I can't do anything.
SPEAKER_03It feels like there's pitfalls in all of it, right?
SPEAKER_00So what do we do? Um here's what we do we use our brains, and uh we know it it's a conscience issue, uh, but there's gonna be convictions behind it. And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna be honest about the opportunities and the risks. But before that, we're gonna be we're gonna determine our our values, like you just laid out. What what are our educational values? Yeah. And then once I've been able to discern that, then I'm gonna be honest about the opportunities and the risks at each one. So I want to throw out some of the things that I'm gonna do. Can I jump in?
SPEAKER_03Because um, it reminds me of a story that R.C. Sproul told once where he went to a uh board uh school board meeting and he said the the the board got out there and explained all these things they're doing, all these programs, all these amazing things they had running, and they just said, Are there any questions? And Sroll raised his hand and said, you know, all of that is fabulous. All the basically all these steps and processes are wonderful. What are they leading to? Like what is the silhouette of the student you're trying to produce? What is the goal of what and he said they they were just drawing blanks. And so they were, they were basically taking all these shots, but they had no target. And so um, you know, what I what I hear you saying is like say, okay, what is your goal in education? What is your and it's not just in education, it's in schooling our children, right? Because there's education involved, there's physical education involved, there's uh there's spiritual engagement, there's social development, there's many things happening in a school environment. What is your goal? I think, you know, for the end when your kid graduates 12th grade, what is your hope that they'll take from that?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so I think everything you just described would fall under the the first thing that I said in terms of determin determining your values. Yeah. What's the target you want to hit? And then what what of the options is most likely to lead to that? Okay. What are your values? Um the second one for me is really helpful to be honest about the opportunities and risks so that you can leverage the opportunities and I'm not gonna say mitigate the risk, but maybe mitigate the risk, you know, address the risk. So I want to go through uh what are some opportunities and risks that I see in each one? Yeah. Um for homeschooling, some opportunities. Uh, you get to teach your kids not just what to think, but what to value and what to love. And you get to be uber involved in every part of their life. Lots of minutes. That's incredible opportunity. Yeah. What are some risks? Um, a risk with world with homeschool is that your worldview goes untested. The world seems nice and neat when every um rebuttal to Christianity is is answered so nicely by Ken Ham at Answers in Genesis. And and so the risk is that your worldview just goes untested.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, but you have the Christians writing the questions and the answers on behalf of the world. That's all right. That's a little it's a risk. Yeah. It's a risk.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Uh so yeah, opportunities, risk. For private school, um, there's real opportunities. You get outside help in teaching your kids how to think from a biblical worldview. Yeah. That's a real opportunity. That's a real blessing. That's a real thing to be happy about and to put value in. Um, and there's a real risk. Uh part of the risk that comes with um with private school, with Christianist school, is it can teach Christians how to be duplicit. It can teach a Christian how to cheat in third period and then go lead uh worship in chapel right after that. Right. And that's and that's a risk. Right. Um, that is unique to private school.
SPEAKER_03And it's not guaranteed that the Christian school is a safe haven, like some parents put their kids in Christian school for to reform them, right? And so it doesn't mean that every kid in the desks around them is wearing a halo, right? And so it it there's there's other risks there too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah, there's lots of risks and lots of opportunities in each. Yeah. Um, for public school, here's uh a an opportunity uh that your kids get to learn things that really can't be taught in the classroom. So uh we have our four girls at Savannah Grove, and they uh obviously they're white, and they are the extreme minority in their in their classes, and they are learning things in that environment that can't be taught in the classroom. Yeah. When they get invited to a birthday party now, they're usually the only white people there. Yeah. Then when we bring uh our neighbors, people from the school to church, my my girls have a unique understanding of what it's like to be the minority and to not get the the music or that people dance differently. And you just can't teach that in a class, but you can learn that in an environment. And so that's a unique opportunity uh for a public school that you can learn things that a class can't teach. Yeah. There's risks as well. Yeah. Um the a risk is having very little knowledge of what is actually being taught, very little say in what's being taught. Yeah. And um, and very little knowledge of what your kids are actually being exposed to. Um parents don't like when I say that their kids don't tell them everything. And and maybe, maybe there's one or two kids and they're they tell their kids. And it's your kids. But uh you just that that's a risk that you just have less knowledge of what's actually happening. That's a real risk. Yeah. So so what what I'm saying is first, let's determine what are our values, what what kind of um child do we want to raise and what's um what educational path uh is most likely to lead to that. So that's determined values. Let's be honest about the risks and the opportunities so that we can leverage the opportunities and uh address the risks. Yeah. Uh and and then, and I don't want to talk about how to do that, but but then be humble in your decision.
SPEAKER_03Especially if you're a couple and you have a different view on which you let's say you have this whole conversation and you still come to differing views. All right, our rising sixth grader should go to a public middle school. No, they should go to a Christian school. And what you you have to decide one way or the other. Let's just and and and let's just say the spouse that quote wins that, you know, you have to be willing to keep it with an open, stay humble. And it could be that you're wrong. You know, you get into it and realize this actually the the benefits are not materializing, the weaknesses are overpowering, and we're gonna make a shift.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, that's what humility does. You know, you're gonna dig your heels in when you're operating from a place of humility. And you're also not going to say, see, I told you this wasn't gonna work.
SPEAKER_03That's right, that's right. Just because one kid goes to this school and the other goes to a different school, and one turns out one doesn't, you all you can do is take responsibility for the process, the investment that you put into it. And then, you know, I I love Crusade's definition of successful Christian living. Essentially, it's you know, live for Christ in the power of the Spirit and leave the results to God. And that's the hard part, isn't it? Leave the results to God.
SPEAKER_00So are we advocating for a particular route?
SPEAKER_03No.
SPEAKER_00No. We're not.
SPEAKER_03We're advocating for a pa for a process.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a process that is based on values, that is based on um honesty.
SPEAKER_01Humility.
SPEAKER_00Honesty and humility. Yeah. That's what we're trying to do. And then you know that begins to unravel to all sorts of different parts of life. Um all right. So here's here's what I was thinking though. The where the Bible doesn't say really anything about school. Certainly nothing in terms of that that would give direction, public, private, homeschool. Um the Bible does say something about instruction and instruction to kids. Right. All right, Hebrew and not Hebrews, Ephesians 6, 4. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. Interestingly, just a couple things to point out here. When Scripture gives uh parental instruction, you know who it addresses?
SPEAKER_03The parents.
SPEAKER_00Not just the parents, the dads. Ah. And that is not very American. Right. Uh Americans, you know, we tend to think, you know, um parenting, that's the mom's job. Right. Except scripture, when there's parental advice, yeah, it gives to it it specifies dads. So dads, we got a role here. I'm not saying moms don't. I I am saying uh dads do. We do. And I think that there's more at stake in the family based on family culture than there is based on uh formal education. Like there's you our kids and raising them raising them up in the fear and instruction of the Lord hangs more on the sort of family culture that we have in Ephesians 6 4, family culture um than it does on what educational route I take, whether homeschool, private school, or public school.
SPEAKER_03That I think is a super important thing to say, look, we're we're really focusing on raising these kids in the fear and instruction of the Lord. And it the main thing about being a parent is not getting the right answer, making sure every kid is in the exact right slot for them. This kid is in private school, this kid is homeschool, this kid is public school, and we have we have this magical ability to get the right answer, and because of that, we've now figured out how to basically make them great kids and great adults. Um, I think the main goal here is as parents to before God with humility and faith, steward the kids He's given us. Again, follow Christ, disciple our children in the power of the Spirit, and leave the results to God and and to do what we do by faith and not put and not judge by the results that um, okay, see, it turned out well, so we got it right, and we can take the box and pat ourselves on the back. Uh, I don't just don't want to put that pressure on parents that it as long as you get all of this just right, your kids will be okay. You know, it's not that. I think that the the submitting to and going through the process as parents and and giving our kids over to God and then stepping back and letting God do what he will do, and trusting that God can use any of these environments really uh to do what he wants to do. Our goal is simply to be a steward of what God has given us as we raise these kids. So I guess the main thing I wanted to point out was the faith to say we don't have to get it exactly right. What we're trying to do is serve God and love our kids.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we're not taking ownership for outcomes. That's right. We are taking ownership for raising our kids in the fear and in the instruction of the Lord. We do take ownership for that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I think that's exactly what you're saying. Yeah. So how do we do that? Um, if it's not about the formal education, it's more about the family culture, raising kids in the fear and instruction of the Lord, how do we do that? Uh, I want to give three thoughts here. Uh we teach, that's what instruction and teaching instructs. We teach with our words. Okay, that should go without saying. Yep. But uh sometimes we think, uh, well, we'll just kind of let them figure it out. We'll let them learn.
SPEAKER_03And in fact, some people think you should.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_03You should not impose your views on your children. No, yes, you should. That is ridiculous. That is modern nonsense. No one thought of that until like two years ago. Like the entire history of the planet, and come talk to me about it, because I have the books right here, has been you should instruct your children because they need rails to run on. And they can decide when they're adults what they do with it. But until then, you do it.
SPEAKER_00Silence is confusing. Yeah. It is confusing. And first word is loudest. So young parents, man, um the first word is the loudest. The first word is going to be the most formative in regard to how they process and view a thing, whether it's sex or money or whatever it is. I learned I learned a lot about life on the back of the school bus in middle school. Yeah. Yeah. And I think my parents uh were were diligent to try to raise us up in the fear and instruction of the Lord and stay ahead of the game. Yeah. But but the bus beat them in a lot of ways. And uh so we we we teach with our words. And um I just want to encourage parents to uh to raise our kids in the fear and instruction of the Lord and be uh to be able to speak into things and say, that's not right. We don't do that. Christians don't do that. That is not in line with God's word. Right. And not just to point away from things, but this is what this this is what real men do. This is what godly womanhood looks like. You see her, yep, that's awesome. You see that, see, see her helping, you see that generosity. So we teach, we teach with our words. That's right. Um, we teach with our example. That's the second one. Our people say it all the time, and it's just true. More is caught than taught. I've learned this in like a it's just kind of ministry settings. We can do all the trainings that we want uh in terms of like how how to lead a life group or how to do this. At the end of the day, people are not gonna do what they're trained to do. People are gonna do what they've seen done. And we're gonna multiply ourselves and our kids by the example that they see. Our example teaches.
SPEAKER_03And you know, I think a good combination of those two things is, you know, um, the Deuteronomy says, you know, talk about these things when you walk on the road, when you get up in the morning, when you go down to bed at night. Uh and it's there's there's a there's a certain lifestyle rhythm to the teaching. So words and actions go together very powerfully. So when you see someone do something, call it out, you know, or when you see something do something good in your family, call it out. So we have a uh tradition in our family. If I get a compliment to one of my kids from someone outside of our family, that kid gets a dollar. And it's not about paying them for their good works because you know it's worth obviously it's worth a lot more than a dollar. But the point is to notice it and celebrate it. Yes, affirm it. And hey, I heard this thing and this person came to me, and sometimes we'll say the name, and sometimes we'll just say, a person came to me and said they saw you doing X, Y, and Z, and it really they thought that was fantastic. And so here's your dollar. You know, we we get a good laugh out of the dollar, but the point is they know in that moment, I'm kind of calling out and celebrating the work of God in their lives, and and where I see them on the path and doing what's right and good and saying this is the way, walkie in it. So it's not just like I'm giving them a lecture on you should do X. I'm like, you know, when you when somebody saw you do an X and that was perfect, it was awesome, way to go, here's your dollar. And and that reinforces, I think, a heart that that and and is a way of teaching that combines both words uh and and actions.
SPEAKER_00After Elevate uh this past Wednesday, I saw Anna and she was able to tell me all about the lesson. So she was listening. Um, that that's so true. And um, when our example falls short of uh what God has called us to do, yeah, then there's another opportunity for another example of humble apology, of confession, yeah, of repentance um that that our kids get to see and need to see. They they need to see conflict resolved in um in our marriages, they need to see uh apologies made to them when we've wronged them. So even when we fall short, there is then opportunity for our kids to be able to see an example of repentance. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03Each of us knows if we think back to the times that people have apologized to us, how impactful that was. Yeah. And imagine it being apparent, how how strongly impactful that is to have a parent apologize to you. Um and to really mean, you know, not not just like, okay, I'm sorry I yelled, but like like to really to work through that and to be humble and to ask for forgiveness and to commit to a better way. Gold.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um, all right, third and last last point I think is we need to make in regard to raising our kids in the fear and the instruction of the Lord is we teach not just with our words and not just with our example, but with good discipline.
SPEAKER_02Woo!
SPEAKER_00Good discipline. Uh ending now. Okay, everybody, thank you for joining us. This this is honestly, um, there is parenting nonsense happening that just wants to let kids figure it out and doesn't want and thinks it's wrong to discipline their kids. And that is harmful, that is hurtful to the kids. Discipline is a good teacher. Yeah, that is a teacher.
SPEAKER_03That is a modern experiment like smoking that I think is gonna go away when we all when the whole world realizes that was a dumb idea. But but it really is the whole this is a brand new thing, this idea of just kind of letting kids figure it out. This is completely new to the universe, and it is not the way the world works.
SPEAKER_00And here's what good discipline does good discipline inflicts pain from a heart of love to produce right righteousness. Yeah, that's right. It it has to involve pain. It has to. And I'm not saying what that pain needs to be, right? But it needs to be pain.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, interestingly, even uh in the the Narnia book Prince uh the boy Hearse and his boy, at the very end, um, you know, that the there was the Prince Rabidash who had who was just being so disrespectful to his captors, who were being very respectful to him. They caught him, they he deserved the death penalty, they were gonna free him, and he's just screaming at them and and refusing. And then Aslan appears and Aslan says, Settle down, and he keeps screaming, and Aslan says, Your discipline is coming, and he just keeps screaming and he says, It is struck, it is time. He disappears, and all of a sudden he's transformed into a donkey. And then Aslan tells him, Look, you know, if you go back to to Tashbayan and you're you go to the temple of Tosh, you can be restored to a human. Um, but uh you can never go more than 10 miles from Tosh Bayon because that will be your punishment to remain there. And and so it's like even, you know, even in Lewis is taking this story from ancient stories of of where the gods transformed people and uh discipline, like God disciplines them those whom he loves. Yeah, yeah, you know, think about Nebuchadnezzar, the same thing, right? He was transformed into a beast by God for his pride, and then he learned his lesson and came back and worshipped the Lord as a pagan king. He took his disappoint, right? And and he turned to the Lord, it did its purpose and and it wasn't permanent. It was it it and it wasn't just punitive, right? It was restorative. And that's the whole goal of all biblical discipline is to be restorative, to be healing, to be a healing power. It's almost like the like the surgeon's scalpel, right? To to to take out the yuck, cover the wound, but you have to create a wound to create a pathway towards healing. And so you see this in the literature, you see this in in in in all types of life, that there has to be an initial wound, the yuck is removed, and now the the road is paved for for healing, but it's going to be a process.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So it good discipline is going to inflict pain, it's going to be predictable and consistent. Predictable in the sense that it should not come as a surprise to anyone. Shouldn't blow your lid. Yeah. Well, that when I do X, I get Y. Yep. That's just the way it works. No, my kid, good discipline doesn't punish or discipline because I'm upset. Right. Good discipline happens because you did X. Right. And when you do X, you get Y. It's very predictable. Yeah. I'm not mad about it, or maybe even if I am mad, that's not why I'm disciplined. Yeah. It's very predictable. It's also very consistent.
SPEAKER_03Um it's kind of like the law, like the state, right? Like the policeman that pulls you over, maybe maybe he's mad because you, you know, you were you were d disrupting society with your driving. But the main thing, he's like, you broke the law, here's the penalty. It doesn't matter if he's mad or not. You know, and and and what what matters is there was a there was a there was a transgression, a crossing of the border, and now there's a penalty for that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so it's predictable, it's consistent, it's not uh based on my mood, it's based on their behavior.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so we don't want to play Russian roulette with our kids, you know, come home bad day, and then you know, now they're in trouble because the room room is messy. No. Well want it to be very predictable, very consistent based on their behavior, not my mood. And so doesn't mean we never show grace. Uh, here's the the and this is where you know a husband-wife combo tends to be really complimentary, and I tend to be more bent towards law, towards discipline. My wife is more bent towards grace, towards compassion, um, forgiveness and tenderness. And uh, and I think she has balanced me out, and I've been able to balance her out, and that has taken some work and sometimes some conflict. Yeah, but I think I would say um that discipline is the norm and uh grace is the exception when it happens by the Holy Spirit's prompting or by the the the strong but appropriate um uh input of the spouse. Either the Holy Spirit or the spouse saying, Hey, I think I think this is a time we should show grace instead of uh discipline here. But but that would be the exception, not the rule.
SPEAKER_03And I agree, and it must not be a male-female thing because in our marriage it's a little different. Heather is more of the this is the this was the rule, you broke it, and I'm more like, oh no, you know, yeah. And so um, again, she's more of the hardliner, I'm the freebird, but neither is right, you know. But if if anyone's more right, she's more right because you know, you're right, the consistency is really important. There is a time, and so I have to, as the more freebird spouse, as the more gracious spouse, when unfortunately we get the good word, but it's it really uh showing discipline is also a form of grace, right? And um, but the the for for me to to to play that and say, Helen, let's let's back off this time. I need to be careful when I do that because I know my fleshly tendency would want to do that, and I need to save it for when it really, really, I feel like the the spirit is prompting it and not just because it hurts me more than it hurts them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I hope that's helpful uh to us as parents and want to just make sure we're keeping the dots connected. You know, all of a sudden we're talking about disciplining our kids and we started in 1 Corinthians 8. How did we get here? 1 Corinthians 8 led us to conscience, led us to all sorts of different um gray areas that we've tried to address and bring clarity to stronger, weaker brother, tried to pinpoint one gray area that's education. But the how we got here is just trying to go, okay, um, what plays a bigger factor in our kids' upbringing and discipling them isn't as much the formal education as it is the family culture. Yeah. And the family culture that is committed to raising our kids in the fear and the instruction of the Lord. Um, we're gonna teach them with our words, we're gonna teach them with our example, we're gonna teach them with good discipline. And so more about family culture than the gray area of um formal education.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and let me just give one more story example to kind of help illustrate the many layers that are involved in this. When we lived in Russia as missionaries, um, a lot, most of the families there put their kids in a private Christian school that was an international Christian school. So it had, you know, missionary kids from many nations, but langu English was the language and it was American founded. And that may feel like counterproductive, like, hey, you've gone to Rus Minister to the Russians, why are you putting your kids all together in this American Christian school? Well, again, there's so many layers to it. Uh, there's the emotional aspect, the intellectual aspect, the social aspect, the spiritual aspect, and all these different things. And what they realize is our kids are already removed from everything familiar to them. And to and they're already removed from their home cultures, from their home from friends, from their family, from their roots, et cetera, to then further alienate them in class in Russian classrooms. Like, why don't we give them one area where they just can be together and be American kids and enjoy that? And then they come home and they're back in the Russian environment, right? You know, out here in the apartments and in the world. And I thought that worked really well for most families, and there were obviously families that did differently. When we realized that we were moving to uh, we we actually, when our kids were younger, we were gonna trans, we we put our kids in in Russian preschool because we wanted them on the playgrounds to be able to feel free and and and that there was no barriers, no language barriers, like your girls in their cross-cultural school now, that we put our kids in a cross-cultural school there when they were young, and we didn't have a chance to we left when our oldest was five, so we didn't have a chance to see how it would work when they grew up, but we were ready to move them when they felt like we've just got too much different. Like we need something similar, something familiar. And so every year it was kind of a difference. Uh, and then when we realized we were moving to England, we did switch them to the Christian school because we wanted their um education now to be in English for one year before they entered England. And in fact, one of our kids was uh entered the school as English as a second language because he needed to bring his English up to speed. Um, and so uh it was so weird it again, there's many layers to all of this, and there's no right or wrong. What is right or wrong is for the parents to be faithful to the calling, to be vigilant, to be humble, to be committed, and to walk by faith.
SPEAKER_00Amen. What does God's word say? What does my conscience allow? What does love demand? And then what would wisdom say? That's it. All right, that's uh that's what we got. Thanks for everyone for joining in. We got First Corinthians 9 next week, where Paul's going to give a practical case study of a freedom that he gave up in love uh for the sake of the brothers and to not cause hindrance to the gospel. So we'll see you next week. Thanks for joining. Yeah.