Church at Sandhurst Podcast

On Winning the Lost (1 Cor. 9) | The Sandhurst Podcast

• Church at Sandhurst • Season 1 • Episode 5

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In this week's episode, Will and Adam talk about winning the lost and how that plays out in everyday life. They discuss the role of self control in cultivating personal intimacy with Jesus, and how that intimacy fuels our heart for the lost. 

SPEAKER_02

All right. What's up, everyone? Welcome to the Sandhurst Beyond Sunday podcast. Here we are. We want to equip the Saints to think biblically about God, life, and culture. Yep. And uh excited about it. Also excited. We're about to leave for a staff retreat at the beach.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, let's go. Kick off the summer well.

SPEAKER_02

Yep. We got meal teams. Yes. Um, what meal team are you on?

SPEAKER_00

Uh, you know, I was absent that day. Uh-oh. So you don't even know? Yeah, I don't even know. I'm like, it's mystery, like, what meal am I helping with? We mean what meal are we not gonna eat? Yeah, well, you know, uh uh gotta pass and then I just forgot to follow up. What's the assignment, Coach?

SPEAKER_02

Uh uh I hope you're not on dinner, crew. We don't have dinner tonight because of you.

SPEAKER_00

Right, hey, you know, like DoorDash.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, wow. Okay, well, yeah, we're going to the beach, and uh, it's gonna be a good time. Yep. Did you bring any games?

SPEAKER_00

Bike ball and football, yeah. So yeah, man. I brought my beach chair so I could follow. One of my favorite things on the beach is just asleep on the beach. What? Yes, just just lay back, man. Just with the breeze and the sun.

SPEAKER_02

I hope you fall asleep on the beach this weekend.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, now I'm gonna have to go walk very far away.

SPEAKER_02

You better walk far away if you tried to take a nap on the beach. Last week we did Battle of the Brains. You know, we had AI write us some questions. We were very dissatisfied with the questions. Yes. So we tried it again and continued to be dissatisfied with the questions. So we're abandoning it. Yeah. But if uh if one of you guys would like to write five questions each week, yeah, or at least a couple times. Yeah. First Corinthians one through nine. Um yeah, we'll take them. Hit us up. We'll we'll we'll take the questions. But uh AI has officially failed us, and we're not even gonna try multiple times, yes. Um all right, well, first Corinthians nine, we kicked off the service yesterday and uh just I thought it was a great service. Yeah. Um Jay Weeb's talked us through power-up clubs and um started doing the uh the ping pong invitations. Tell us a little bit about that. And also we heard a story in uh in the service about you guys have hosted and now you're kind of passing the baton on. Discipleship, excuse me. Um tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, well, so you know, our we we we do what you do, you know, as as as as hosts, we would walk the neighborhood, we would pray, and then we would start knocking on doors and our our neighbors two doors down. We're out in their driveway. We hadn't caught them at home, but there they were. And so we kind of popped in and said, Hey, you know, we see you've got a young one here, and we'd love to have you over. So they ended up coming to they walked over to our power-up club and they ended a couple of a couple of weeks and you know, they're there a couple of years, their their kid really Stanton, he is he's so awesome. And he jumped right in, sitting right up front, did great with all the other kids. And it was just a clear, it was it was a good match. And and then they had a good experience, and then they decided to stay and check check out the church, and and man, they just kept coming and it was a good thing for them. And and our kids have did it all, we've done it every year, and then our kids grew up and have moved on, and and then they're uh Stanton is a is a little one, and so they're like, man, let's let's do it. And so now we're gonna support them in doing what they came over initially to our our yard for.

SPEAKER_02

I love it. And so is this the first year that you're not hosting?

SPEAKER_00

Uh so one other year we assisted a different neighbor hosting, and then um, and then they uh then they passed it back to us, and now we're assisting a second neighbor. So it's like a kind of our second run at it.

SPEAKER_02

I love it. Yeah, I love it. All right. Well, we've said that you know, we've we've put different words for why we do power-up clubs. Yeah, essentially it's all the same thing. We've said we want to put Christ on display in the front yards of Florence. That's right. True. Uh we've said we want to saturate our city with the message and presence of Jesus. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. And and because you could do one without the other. You could saturate your city with the message of Jesus, you could hand out tracks everywhere. Right. Instead of handing out flyers, you could hand out tracks and saturate your city with the message of Jesus. But to saturate your city and combine the message of Jesus with the presence of Jesus that we're we're sending saints truly filled by the Holy Spirit to to these front yards to interact with people, then you get the message of message of Jesus with the presence of Jesus. That's right. And and great things happen when the church when the church does that.

SPEAKER_00

And hopefully it's good as hosts, it was really good for us too, to be accountable, to be praying for our neighbors, to know our neighbors, to remember their names, you know, and to be praying for them as we go around their uh the neighborhood walking the streets. And and it was just good accountability for us because we know that, okay, we we've invited the neighborhood to our yard for this Christian club. And whether they come or not, we hope they do, but even if they don't, now everybody knows that the Christians live in that house, you know, and and it's just good accountability for us. And we hope that we will be a source of life and light to the neighborhood throughout the year if there's a problem or an issue. And it has actually happened here and there. Things come up, people check in enough. Actually, I remember I was on a walk one time and I had a neighbor who they didn't have a kid at our power-up club, but they knew who we were because of this. And he literally just stopped his truck, uh, you know, uh, jumped out, and we had about an hour conversation on the curb there because he's like, Oh, yeah, you're the guy. And so it it just kind of puts us on the map and gives us access to our people. And it's it's it's an obvious and easy ask. Hey, we're having a free kids' club, you know, we're not we're not selling anything, we're not uh asking for anything, we're just offering something. And it's really cool.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and and not to go too far into power-up clubs, but I think one of the biggest draws for parents right now, and I think just kind of a pitch for it, is parents, I think, really want to find some places where their kids can be outside uh without phones and electronics. Yeah. And and I think there's maybe a little bit of a wanting our kids to feel a little bit of like 90s life, yeah where people are just like playing in the yards. Right. And I think that that's that's uh uh a little bit of an edge that power-up clubs can have um in in inviting people to go. Hey, no electronics, yeah, no, nothing special except just a bunch of people who love your kids and who want to come share Jesus with them and spend time out in front yards.

SPEAKER_00

And it is so easy to get involved, you know, and and it's it's not like you have to send your camp kid off to camp for a week. And if you do, that's great, it's wonderful. People do that, and we did that. But uh, this is so easy and it's free, and it's exactly right. It's just so human, it just restores our humanity.

SPEAKER_02

So um we've had different language for why to do power-up clubs. Yep. I think if Paul, in light of 1 Corinthians 9, was going to hear about power-up clubs, and he'd go, Oh, I I have a great uh purpose statement for power-up clubs for you. Yeah, it's one word. Here it is. Win. Yeah, yeah. That's what it like 1 Corinthians 9 is him going, I want to win people to Jesus. I want to win the loss. That's what that's what I want to do. And so I'm gonna read the read the passage because we're Bible church means we're gonna think biblically by looking at the actual verses. The actual text. And um, as we do that, here's a few things that are gonna come up. Um, one is the this whole idea of becoming a slave to all that he might win some. Right. And um, and and so one question that we're gonna look at is how do you well what does that actually look like to be c to make yourself a slave of all? Right. And how does that fit in? This is the big question for me. How does that fit into being an alien? I'm called to be an alien, I'm called to be different, right? A stranger in exile. Right. And uh how does that fit in with uh what he says here? That'll be question one. Right. Question two will be when he moves to the image of athletics, um and he he elevates these two things that are essentially the same thing. It's self-control and discipline. How do those things connect to winning people?

SPEAKER_00

Also, how do you be yourself and not just you know imitate other people to kind of make them like you to hear the gospel? I mean, uh we're we're you're we're trying to be authentic and at the same time winsome. So how do you do that?

SPEAKER_02

Let's uh read the verses. It's 1 Corinthians 9, verses 19 to 27. He says, For though I am free from all men, I've made myself a slave to all. Here's why. So that I may win more. To the Jews I became as a Jew so that I might win Jews, to those who are under the law, as under the law, though not being myself under the law, so that I might win those who are under the law, to those who are without the law, as without the law, though not being without the law of God, but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without the law. To the weak I became weak that I might win the weak. I become all things to all men, so that by all means I might save some. I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. So we'll stop there right there for now. Win. He becomes all things to all people, so that by all means he might save some. So here's a question. Um What does that actually look like in real life? We talked in the sermon a little bit about what that looked like for Paul, yeah, in terms of winning people. He was either kosher or not. He used the name Paul as opposed to Saul. There's just a few different things that we are able to see. This is what he did to um to win these people. But so let's let's first define what we mean by um or what it means to become a slave to all, and then let's press it out into real life. Okay. Okay, so um here's what it means it means adjusting the way you relate to people socially for the purpose of removing barriers, for the purpose of winning them. Right. Okay, let me say that a little bit more concisely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Uh it means uh to make yourself a slave to all. It is relational it's being relationally strategic towards winning people. Relationally strategic towards winning people. It doesn't mean that you're ever going to go against uh either God's word or your conscience. Right. Okay. Uh we wouldn't do that, and that's not what Paul's saying here, but he's he's going, I'm being relationally strategic towards winning people. And that language has actually helped me, and uh, I'll tell you why in a second.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, I think what you're saying is I'm willing to submit to uh to neutral things to show that I care for this person. You know, when you're talking to someone, you know, let's just say you have a huge interest in Marvel, right? Uh and this uh uh or actually I'm gonna reverse it out. The other person has a huge interest in Marvel. You know they love Iron Man, right? Iron Man shirt, they love Iron Man, but you don't care about Marvel at all. You don't know what that is even. And some of you may be listening, may not even know what I'm talking about yet. It's just it's a comic series uh and uh the Marvel uh universe. Uh and so, but what you do in that moment is you don't walk up to them and go, you know, you're an idiot for liking that, or what's what's your point? Or you you know, you don't kind of set yourself up as oppositional. You reach across, you show understanding, and it doesn't mean you now have to love Iron Man, but you show care, interest. So tell me about Iron Man, you know, why do you why do you love that? And what and then you start to think about what connects, what passion is behind that that you have, and and just kind of start to share that person's life, understand that person, know about them. And I feel like that's what it means to be all things to all people is to care. I mean, kind of like when you said, you know, okay, it's about meat to idols, but then it's about conscience, but it's about love and God's glory. It's like I think, I think going down the the the layers, um, to be all things to all people is really to to to it's really about caring about seeing people, caring about them, understanding their passions, and connecting to those passions in your way.

SPEAKER_02

Totally agree. And uh I I would put everything you said, kind of capture that. Mm-hmm. Um so here's what that looked like in ministry in in youth ministry, and then I want to hear what that looked like in Russia. Yeah. 17 years in Russia. I I'd assume there's some bending that you needed to do to be able to connect with Russians. Yes. When you know you're from making Georgia. Right. And then uh and then what what would that look like just like for the normal person who's not in youth ministry or in Russia? Right. Um, what would that look like? So uh just think youth ministry for a second. I think there's some things that people that some youth guys would do really well that I didn't do as well. Um and that was trying to like relationally strategic would would mean um working hard to understand youth culture.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

So you don't have to become like them. That's right. But to but to be able to understand like uh the w their their language, yeah, their lingo, yeah, um, their the the things that are popular, the things that are trending.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

Um I think some guys didn't have I I can think of a few guys who did that really well, and I didn't do that very well. And uh and I think I could have done better then, better uh in that way, working to understand kind of the world that they the the the air that they breathe.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. That's a really important distinction is to understand them, to see them and understand them as opposed to becoming them. And I and I honestly, even though Paul uses that language, I became all things to all people, I think that's really what he means. Okay, he's not saying, you know, I bec you're not saying like even though I was a young adult married with children, I became a teenager. You're saying I, in my heart, in my mind, in my vision, I was able to see them for them. I was able to understand them and relate to them as them in a way that they would could could could could could embrace and feel native in. I could speak the language, I could, I could feel the heart, I could respond to that person in their own heart language. And and that is what's so valuable, that you're seeing this person and reaching out to them in a way that they that they understand.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I would even maybe tweak that a little bit, that yes, there's the understanding, and it doesn't mean becoming a teenager, but uh I think that that's so where I didn't excel is kind of really being a student of youth culture. I think where I did excel is uh is kind of being able to harness my inner teenager and be able to be me. Yeah. And so I think where like here's what youth culture, what I do know youth culture really appreciates. They want to know that their radar is always up for are you fake? Are you being real right now?

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_02

And uh if if they get a whiff of uh anyone being disingenuous or trying to trying to act something in a way that they're not, yeah, uh that it is a huge turn off. And so in terms of like r being relationally strategic, it actually, especially students, is very relationally strategic towards winning people to just be yourself. Yes. To not try to uh to not try to act a certain way or talk a certain way or dress a certain way because students are like, man, I I they just hate anything that they think is fake.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And uh and I think there there was an element for me that was able to go, okay, I want to be relationally strategic. Part of that is being, I'm just gonna be me. They really value that they would rather me dress like me than me try to dress like a cool student or talk like a cool student. Right. Okay, so that's relationally strategic. Maybe me. Another and and then other ways of being relationally strategic is going, okay, uh everything that you already said in terms of Marvel, but kind of some youth versions of that would go, what do they love? And that's what I'm gonna either learn to love or I'm going to uh love with them. Yep. And that was easy for me, honestly, in youth ministry because a lot of students love to play. Guess what I love to do? Yep.

unknown

Play.

SPEAKER_02

You know? Um a lot of a lot of the young guys want to wrestle.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Sometimes they don't know until they get in a wrestling match, like, oh man, I want I want to beat something up. Yeah, yeah. I like to wrestle. Yeah. You know? Um secret handshake, learning names. These are ways to go, okay. Yeah, I'm not becoming a teenager in the immaturity, right? But I am able to harness my uh my inner teenager to go, okay, what is relationally strategic towards winning you? And sometimes uh what is relationally strategic is just the playing. It's right, it's just the the conversations about nothing that actually then lead to something.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. And they say that quality time is the accident that happens during quantity time, right? And so you were able to just put that in. Yeah. And and not to get too far ahead, but I mean, even in the Russian context, it was so it was exactly the same. Like Russians could sniff it out if you were trying to be Russian. And they didn't want you. They want you to be an American, they want you to be you. But um, you could be an American. And and I think there one of my Russian friends helped me about this more than any cross-cultural class I took in seminary. He just said, Look, Adam, we don't expect you to be a Russian, you're an American. But we would love for you to know about us, to care about what we care about, to ask us about things that we know about, and to take those things seriously. Basically, take us seriously on our terms. And that's that is what they're asking for. So that because they could sniff you out if you're trying to be a Russian, because then that feels like manipulation. If I can act like Russian, I can basically almost tool you into now liking me, and I can say things and do things that you'll accept. You know, like a spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down. It's like, yeah, you think I'm a Russian, you'll listen to me. You know? And like these are not the droids you're looking for. And it's just like, no. Uh so uh it was not about trying to become something we're not, but it was about um taking the people in front of us seriously on their terms and loving them in ways that they understand. And that was so powerful. That was what was powerful. Because you're what you're doing is you're saying, I'm gonna sacrifice me being me, and I want to bring me to you, and I want to hear from you and interact with you on terms that you enjoy and appreciate and can can understand.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. All right, so that that's great. So I kind of gave a little bit of the student ministry version of being relationally strategic towards winning people. Yeah. Um, you gave a little bit of the missionary version. Do you have any other thoughts about that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so interesting. Even within Russia, there was there were different subcultures. So uh I remember one time I went out to a soccer field and there was a bunch of teenagers playing soccer. And so they would dress like typical teenagers, torn jeans, backward caps, you know, uh t-shirts. And so I I put all that on and went out there to play soccer. Now, um, I wasn't trying to say I'm a Russian teenager, but I just realized that if I wore like a clerical collar or something, you know, that that was going to be a stumbling block. And so I wore that. And they said, okay, cool. Yeah, and you're an American. That's what, you know, what do you do? And I said, I'm a priest. And they're like, No, you're not. I said, Yeah, actually, I'm a priest. And and um, we got a good laugh out of that, and they were talking about, and and actually they're like, Well, why don't you look like one? You know, why don't you have the dark robes and the long beard and the pointy hat? And this is kind of what they were picturing.

SPEAKER_02

And why did you say priest and not missionary? Because I think this that that word actually might answer. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I'm not sure they would have ever heard the word missionary or pastor. Like they these words would have been new to them. Um, but they know what a priest is. They this is this is all they have in the Russian church is priests, right? And at least in the Orthodox churches, what which is what they would have known. Probably less than 1% of Russians are in the Protestant church. This was not them. And so I didn't think they would have known the word missionary. I didn't think they would have known the word pastor. And so I said priest, which is the word they would have known. And that's the role they know. You know, when you think about the Catholic Church, there's a lot of different roles in the Catholic Church. There's a verger, you know. Anybody know what a verger is? And there's different lots of different, there's a canon, there's a, you know, whatever, there's bishops and but but most people won't think of the Catholic Church, they know, okay, I know the word priest, I know what a priest is. And that's what these, that's what these kids were. They're like, okay, I know what a priest is. And a professional religious person is a priest. And so that's what I said, you know, because I thought that's the word they will know.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, and so I used that word and and just to say, I'm a professional religious person. And and they that they understood that. They're like, okay, but that's not you. Yeah. And I said, actually, it is, and you don't have to look like that, and this is why. And it it really, we had a great conversation about why priests don't have to wear long robes and pointy hats and whatever, because we're just humans and people and we're trying to uh grow in our holiness just like everybody. And uh it they were just mind-blown. So that was really interesting to have a conversation with secular teenagers in torn jeans and a t-shirt and a cap on the field like that. Shift gears a little bit to um a Protestant Christian context, which in Russia was very uh at the time was very legalistic, bless some. You know, they they had lived underground so long that they had to define their culture oftentimes by by their behavior, by their dress, and so forth. And so I would not at all wear torn jeans or a t-shirt. You know, you would you would dress respectfully because that's what they expected, and you would speak respectfully, you would not use jokes from the pulpit or even in casual conversation. Um, you would you you would just begin to you you're I'm not I wasn't trying to be somebody different, but I was trying to relate to them in a way that wouldn't um throw up uh flags of disrespect to them. And and that way we could have those same conversations about about God and life and culture. So for example, we kept oh in our apartment, we kept a wine rack on top of our fridge. We didn't ever serve it to believers because most believers were teetotalers, um, but we left it there as a conversation piece to talk about uh what our obligation to God is and to each other. And it would turned out to be really fruitful and helpful.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Uh I think those are great examples. Um okay, so let's think uh more normal life now. Most people aren't in youth ministry, most people aren't in Russia. Yeah. And normal life, let me give you a thought on w how how just the normal saint who's who wants to love and obey God, by his power, for his glory, help others do the same, can process being um relationally strategic. And I I would I would phrase it in this question. Um it would be just asking the question what can I do to get more minutes? And deeper connection. Start with that question. What can I do to get more minutes with lost people and deeper connection with lost people? So a few examples. Well, it could mean that as you look at your life, you go, okay, I need to start some new things. Like I need to incorporate some new things in my life because I'm never around lost people.

SPEAKER_00

Or take the things that I'm good at and do and do them with lost people instead of Christians. So if you're in a crafting club, you know, and you do scrapbooking or quilting or whatever you do, instead of inviting the ladies from your Bible study over, invite your neighbors or your workmates. So do the things you normally do, but don't do them with believers.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Yeah. And so it could it could mean if I'm going to get uh more minutes and deeper connection with lost people, it might mean I need to start doing new things, or it might mean um inviting different people to things I'm already doing.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, our kids are gonna play ball. I can either sit on the sidelines in a chair, or I can lead and be the coach with in the center of all the kids and all the parents and and shine the light from there. And and what what a great because people already care about their kids. They already want you to, and then you can not only have a platform for the gospel, but you can actually show the gospel by not being crazy, not being angry, uh being supportive, being encouraging, being helpful, being respectful, and demonstrate what uh Lewis would call a latent Christianity, uh Christianity that that oozes through your actions, and people are thinking that's not the way normal people do that. And that already sets a great foundation for then later conversations.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, totally agree. So just keep it all connected. Okay, relationally strategic. It might mean starting new things, uh incorporating new things in my life because I'm trying to get more minutes and deeper connection, or it could be just changing what I'm already doing, inviting new people into it. So a few examples that have been really helpful for us in some ways that Sweet D has been better at this than me. Um one thing that has been really good for us in terms of getting more minutes and deeper connection with the people on our road is taking walks.

SPEAKER_00

Yep.

SPEAKER_02

Now, this is this is just a me thing, okay? This is not a biblical command.

SPEAKER_00

It is surprisingly a superpower.

SPEAKER_02

I I've for some reason I like to walk. Like just I like to take a walk. It sounds kind of No, it's very human. Yes. Um but I like to go on a walk, and we live kind of in the country. We don't have neighbors a quarter in a mile in each direction. Yeah, you got big lands. But we um what even still, we know probably let me think. Yes, all of our neighbors a half mile in one direction and a mile in the other direction. Huh? Is that three people? It's more than that. But um and and that has just been by taking walks and seeing people out. And then um people tend to be real at least on our road, they've tended to be very open to having conversation. We have our kids with us. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

It's it's very non-threatening on a walk. Like you're you're just out, you're you're you're not you're not like coming up with your bag of where's the sell again. Right. You're just out, you're in there, you know, it's very non-threatening.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And um, and so in terms of being taking a walk and then being relationally strategic, you know, more minutes, deeper connection, we've tried to just strike up conversations and and then especially given again, this is this is my version of this, but um country life, a lot of older people on our road. I always offer to help out in some way, whether it's um uh trimming trees or is a branch down. Yeah, that kind of thing to say, hey, um, I got four daughters. Yeah, we like to work. Yeah. Um, if there's anything that we can do uh to help you out, uh trimming trees, moving stuff, go to the dump, yeah, uh feel free to let us know.

SPEAKER_00

You know, I've got a neighbor who um doesn't have a trailer and I've driven by their yard before when these big branches are down and I happen to be, you know, and I've got my trailers, I just hop out and drag their stuff off. I've done this like three or four times. I just drag all their stuff into my trailer and just go, you know, it's what you do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So just trying to be uh relationally strategic to get more minutes and deeper connections. Um and I'm I'm trying to learn the culture of Cherry Johnson Road because it's not like a culture of suburban Jacksonville, uh, Florida that I grew up in. Right. And uh so that's kind of one version. And and and and really I the goal there is in the relational connection, I I want to win them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And and can I say that that right there is not just a tactic. It's not like a uh, like, okay, this is uh in the 101 book on how to win people to Jesus. It is the heart of God. Okay. This is God saying, I know you. I God knows every neighbor of yours on Cherry Johnson Road. God knows all those people, God sees them, he understands their strengths, their weaknesses, their hopes, their fears, their eternity. He sees them. And you are seeing them. You are being his hands and feet and voice. So in in one sense, it's it's biblical, you know, and and and and it's a Pauline principle to be all things to all people and to see them on their own terms. But below that, uh, it is it is, I think it's human. And below that, it's human because it is it's an expression of God, and we were made in his image, and we were made to see and understand and be in community, to love and know each other. And that's that is exactly what you're doing in those moments. You're just repracticing the image of God on your street.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And so you brought up the sports sort of example. That that is one way that taking walks on my road and connecting with neighbors, very easy, very natural. Yeah. Talking and engaging with other parents at a sports event, not so for me. For whatever reason.

SPEAKER_00

You were gonna say it was easy.

SPEAKER_02

No, I I can't talk really uh to anybody generally speaking during a sporting event. Like I'm I'm there for the game. I'm not there to talk to you. And uh but but yeah. But yeah, and and and even at practice, for some reason I just get I just get a little bit I don't know, I just don't want to.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And uh and that's where I'm watching Sweet D has been really helpful to me to go, yeah, okay. I think maybe I think she has a vision for it because of what she saw in her parents, because they grew up more of a sports family than than I did. Yeah. But um, she she's really good at connecting with other moms and being relationally strategic to get more minutes and deeper connection. Yeah. Where that goes, uh we don't really know.

SPEAKER_00

As as uh I I'll wear a different kind of a t-shirt to a particular event just to kind of draw them out, right? So like I'll wear my U2 uh Joshua Tree t-shirt out to the sporting event and see, all right, who's gonna who's gonna say they love you too, right? Or I'll wear my Georgia Bulldogs t-shirt and say, who loves the dogs or who hates them? Yeah, I know you don't. Go gators, right? Go gators. Whatever that thing is, anyway. Uh and and you know, I I'll actually so I I think for me, I mean, I maybe I'll I'll actually be strategic about wearing different t-shirts to see who I can kind of draw out and sort of into a conversation about some neutral thing in in my life that that that I enjoy that maybe they've got a passion about for or against. And and it'll just kind of strike up a connection.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So how how to get from what we're talking about right now to the gospel? Yeah. That's gonna be next week.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, next week talking about like how do I get from normal life to uh eternal life?

SPEAKER_02

Yes. Yeah. But but right now, I just really want to focus on being relationally strategic. Yeah. More minutes, deeper connection, greater intentionality with um either starting new things if I need to, or just greater intentionality with what I'm already doing.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I think a couple things stand out. You know, one is yes, to think about what do I already love? Is it woodworking, is it crafting, is it theater, is it, you know, whatever it is, book club. And do that with non-believers and just build those bridges, those relational bridges. Second um is to, like, you know, you said more minutes, commit to something. Don't just commit to go to work, go home, pay the bills, go to bed, repeat. You know, like engage society and and learn to see the people around us. And I think uh a third thing, like you said, you know, the about Sweet D and the kind of being at the event, see people. If they've got the U2 shirt and you love U2 and you went to that concert, say something. You don't have to, all you're doing is opening a door. They may not walk through it, they may shut it, you know, they may go, yeah, whatever, or I bought this shirt thrifting or whatever. Um but they might say, Oh, cool, yeah, I was at that, I was at that same concert. You just never know, right? And so just to, you know, um, they talk about, you know, Jesus used the example of fruit and and the harvest is plentiful. And sometimes you just gotta walk around the tree and take a quick check on each one and see which one comes loose.

SPEAKER_02

So um let's let's close out these verses uh and the whole idea of being a slave to all, which I have interpreted or put this language of like being relationally strategic on. Uh take a shot at summarizing everything we just said, and if you can incorporate uh bring the alienness into it and how alieness fits into everything we just said.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I I you know, you you know, you you've said be relationally strategic. I think the words that come to my mind that are that are natural to me are um be uh relationally caring, like seeing, like and and look, look around you, sort of like Jesus said, lift up your eyes, right? Don't just go head down in my in my life. So relationally caring and and and just a different way to say the same thing, strategic, uh to sort of give yourself a certain amount of intentionality.

SPEAKER_02

So probably intentional is probably better than strategic.

SPEAKER_00

So relationally intentional to see the people around us. And and that's how I would summarize it. In terms of the alien-ness, um, to remember that we are on a high road, right? And we are we live in the world, but not of the world. So um that we God put us here to to enjoy and delight in his good creation and to use it, not abuse it, and to to to live in a way that honors the humanity and the world that God put us in, um, but in a way that uh that calls people to um a higher standard.

SPEAKER_02

So yeah, I'm gonna take a stab at it too. Uh sometimes I just need to go, okay, you know we've been talking about this for 20 minutes now. So what have we been saying? And that can be hard, so let me give it a shot. Um yeah, I I I like relationally intentional more than relationally strategic. It feels a little too um uh impersonal to say relationally strategic, but uh to but in in a to be relationally intentional in a way that doesn't act that doesn't deny my alienness or my the the the the fact that I am called to be distinctly Christian, but I'm being distinctly Christian in a way that is trying to connect with you more more minutes, deeper connection. Right. Um and if I personally had to lean in the direction of kind of if I if I had to choose between becoming like them to connect with them or remaining alien, distinct, convictionally resolved, and being different but still trying to relationally connect, I I'm gonna lean in the direction of uh of this, of of being alien. Yeah and and not just feeling like I need to listen to the music or uh l listen to the podcast that they're listening to so that I can understand them. I'm gonna lean in that direction.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean you can understand pop culture in about five minutes a week. I mean, like it really is, it it is there's nothing new under the sun. And we don't need to like do deep dives on their uh content to understand them. Absolutely not. Yeah. I remember I had a friend who used to who didn't care, he's a guy didn't care about sports at all. He was kind of a bookworm and a and a nerd, but um he would read the sports page every morning before he went into the office because he worked in an office with a bunch of men who did care about that. And he just wanted to be able to be a part of that conversation and speak intelligently to it. So like he actually did that. And and it wasn't like, okay, I'm trying to like be a part of the gang. I think he thought this is how I can love them. It's like for him, it was sacrificial love. And whatever your thing is, to sacrificially love your neighbors, your people, your workmates, your even your family, uh, to to reach across those barriers and just know what interests them and they care about, care about that too, and to cultivate those interests. Uh how and and and yes, in a in a neutral way, you know, like like you say, we're not departing from the path and going to crazy places and doing stupid things. Um, but at the same time, to to call them to a life where uh our our that is life-giving, that is that did that that we do that we do things in a way that honors God, that honors uh our humanity, that honors uh the the the beautiful and good creation that we live in.

SPEAKER_02

Good summary word there to to make myself a slave to all is to discern how can I love you? Yeah. How can I love you? With more minutes, deeper connection, how can I love you? And with the hope and the intention and the prayerful expectation, I actually want to win you. Yeah, that's right. You're not my project. Yeah, that's love though. That's right. I want I I want to figure out how how I can love you and win you to Jesus.

SPEAKER_00

And we have that goal because God has that goal.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

He wants to win the world to him. For God so loved the world, he gave his only son that whosoever would believe in him would not perish but have eternal life. And he is hoping that they would that people would believe and come to him because he knows that we are uh most uh satisfied uh and delighted when we are most satisfied in him. When our souls are at rest in God, that's when we are at rest.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. All right. Um let's let's go to the next portion, and that is now where he's going to use this athletic imagery, um, which makes sense because he's been talking about winning people. Which side note, I think I've just really appreciated how he was just really he was working towards an outcome, knowing that he couldn't actually produce that outcome. But he's still working towards winning.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

Um, not just doing things. Okay. Uh so here's the athletic imagery that he uses in verses 24 to 27. He says, Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Therefore, I run in such a way as not without aim. I box in such a way as not beating the air, but I discipline my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified. Alright, let me jump in with a few text questions and then see what you got. Um two questions. What is the prize when he says uh they do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable? Okay, what is that? And then what does he mean when he says, uh, I have um so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified? What is he afraid of being disqualified from? Eternal life? Okay, so what's the prize? I think that what he's talking about here, the prize that he's chasing, but only one receives the prize run in such a way that you may win. What has win winning meant this whole time in 1 Corinthians 9? It's meant winning people to Jesus. Right. And so then when he says everyone competes in the game, everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. I think he's going, I exercise, I exercise self-control so that I may win the prize and get this imperishable wreath. And that is, I think, the people. I think he's trying to win people. Now, not everybody agrees with me there, but uh I think that's what he's trying to win.

SPEAKER_00

And if you if you skip ahead to verse 27, no beat my body and make it my slave, so that after I've preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize. Um, and so uh there definitely if the if if you take prize for people, uh in that sense, it it it it it it could be, again, one of two things, it could be if it's people, he himself is the prize. Like he's saying, I confirm my own salvation, I won't be disqualified and I will have assurance of my salvation. Um if it's if prize is something different, honor to Christ or whatever, then then then then that's you know that that but both are are definitely kind of uh contending there.

SPEAKER_02

I think it's a little bit like a red card in a game. I think uh in in a soccer game, and if you don't know soccer, then whatever. But uh he's going, I don't want to be disqualified from being part of the mission. Now, when you get a red card, you get kicked off the field, but you don't get kicked off the team. And so I think he's going, I I'm I'm exercising self-control and discipline because I don't want to be dis I don't want to disqualify myself from being part of winning people. I think that's what he's talking about.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's fair. That is very fair uh because he he says, Um, after I have preached to others, I don't want to be disqualified. In other words, I want to live up to the standard upper claim.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_02

You think it's fair or do you think it's right? I'm not sure yet. Okay, that sounds good. All right. Um so any thoughts on those verses, particularly well, I'll just start with that. Any thoughts on those verses? Um If not, I got some.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, uh, you go ahead.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. So the two things that he um leans into in the athletic image is self-control and discipline. Yeah. Which is really, if you think about it, not two things. It's one thing. Right. Self-control and discipline. The the most compelling thing for me in this was trying to connect, okay, winning people with self-control. Because if I was gonna use an athletic image, I would not have used that. I would have been like, okay, we're gonna win people, and I'm thinking, okay, imagery, I'm gonna think we're gonna work, we're we're gonna work towards being really competent in winning people. We're gonna work to develop skills. That's right. There's a lot of things I could think of, but winning people and self-control are not typically the thing, are not the things that I would have put together. And so then you gotta go, okay, well, Paul's got something in his mind, and what was he thinking? And this I actually felt like I started to get some traction here trying to connect to the things that Paul connected, and um, and if I was gonna connect, or as as I'm trying to work to connect self-control with winning, I'd say, okay, in the absence of self-control, without self-control, I am going to ruin my witness. I am gonna go to the game and um I'm going to let my overcompetitiveness um rule me, and in the lack of self-control, I'm gonna ruin my witness. I'm gonna I'm going to um you know, uh be embarrassed when I see the person at first be on Monday when I see them at church and be like, oh, I didn't have self-control. So um it it's hard to win people when when there's a lack of self-control that is ruining witness. It's hard to win people when there's lack of self-control in terms of morality, in terms of ethics, in terms of sin. If I'm controlled by sin, um and and don't have self-control against the desires of the flesh, we've talked about conscience. My conscience will be um ultimately seared. Yeah. I will be desensitized, not just to the sin, but to the heart of God for people, and that's a big deal. Yeah. Um so when I don't have self-control against sin, my heart just grows cold. It grows calloused. Um, I think that's from Colossians, uh, where he uses that language.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And um in the absence of self-control, I I mean, I'm just kind of resaying what I said in the sermon, but I thought it was really important. Uh, in the absence of self-control, I say yes to so many things. And this is like this is what I think our church is really what a lot of people in our church are trying to navigate. Saying having so many things that we want to do, so many things that we want to be a part of, so many good things, so many Bible studies, so many, you know, um life group events, so many sporting things, so many, so many opportunities, so many things that uh we don't have the self-control to be able to say no to things. And so uh what what inevitably gets crowded out is any margin to be able to say, Lord, I want to meet with you. So that that's kind of what's at stake in terms of scalp self-control and winning people. And um, sorry, I know I'm talking a lot here. I think the biggest reason that we don't talk about Jesus, I'll just speak personally. The biggest r hindrance that I have towards talking about Jesus is not usually, oh, I'm afraid of rejection. It's not usually fear, it's not usually um sort of I'm just not really sure what to say. Yeah, lack of uh I just I talk about I don't if I'll talk about the Jaguars, and I'm not oh but if they don't like the Jaguars. Right. Yeah. I just but but I love the Jaguars. Yeah. I think the reason Christians don't usually talk about Jesus is at the end of the day, and this is a hard like a reality to come to grips with, I don't love Jesus. Right. I think that's the biggest reason we don't talk. I just don't love him. I don't have a Philippines three sort of um yeah uh the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I've suffered the loss of all things. I just don't have much of that. Um when I don't have much of that in me, then I'm not gonna talk about Jesus and it's just duty. And so again, connecting that to self control, the inability, not inability, the um unwillingness. Willingness to say no to this good thing so that it can say yes to cultivating intimacy that then leads to sharing the gospel with people.

SPEAKER_00

You know, and I and I think that the the word that that word used cultivating intimacy is really important because you know we all know at the beginning of a relationship it's easy. You know, there's an infatuation, or you know, even like in a romantic relationship, there's a uh what's that early period called? Um I guess a honeymoon infatuation, right? And it's it's just it's just easy, it just kind of oozes out of you. But there's a moment in that relationship where it needs to shift from from that, from a crush, as it were, to a discipline. Love shifts, you know, in a marriage from that honeymoon period, whether it's a year or two years or three years, it has to shift into a discipline of cultivating that love. And same is true with God. We have to shift from just, oh, but God is easy, He loves me, it's awesome, it just overflows, to a cultivation of that love with God. And I think you're right. We we kind of we don't give up on God. We give up on cultivating our love with God and just get into a rut, get into our routine. It's easier to get up and go to work or to even go to the gym or do a lot of other very profitable things, but it's harder to to know and love God. And I think if our core uh passions about God were gratitude and honor and love, then it would be much easier to share Christ and to reach out to others, to, to, to, to, to, to exercise discipline and to exercise self-control in order to win people because we want to win them to a God that we love and and and are so thankful for and care about.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, fully agree. And I think that's that's good discernment to go, okay, um, this the when the honeymoon love and infatuation goes away, that doesn't mean love went away. It just means love needs to deepen and recultivated it.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. Like when you first plant a plant, uh, you know, we we just planted some dogwoods last year, uh, some new dogwoods, because all of our older dogwoods are into life. I didn't realize dogwoods have like a lifespan of like 15 to 20 years. Wow. Yeah. I mean, and like I I think in terms of oak trees, right? Like 300 years. But anyway, so um, we had to replant our dogwoods and you put it in the ground, and you know, you come back the next day, and the roots are still basically in their own ball, right? They haven't begun to draw nutrients from the local soil. They're still just sitting there. And a lot of Christians just kind of get stuck in, and they're they're fine, they're happy, but you've watered them and you've planted them, but they haven't grown through into the local nutrients, right? They haven't gone deep. And then they'll have to experience a winter and some dryness, and then that'll force the roots to grow deeper. And I love that Dave Wilcox song, oh, the roots grow deeper when it's dry, you know. And but a lot of Christians, when it gets dry or it gets cold, they go, Oh, my room ball, you know, and like God hates me, or I'm just gonna like in and like, no, it's it's it's our opportunity now to go deep and to persevere and to begin to to root in a certain place. And I and I and our love with God has to do that. It's not that God's gone away or love has gone away. It needs to deepen, it needs to mature. And that's gonna be a different kind of a long-term love than just the initial burst of of exuberation.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So we were talking about that because self-control and cultivating intimacy uh and and a depth of intimacy that isn't just kind of the exuberant kind. Um here here's some things that I think are important to consider regarding self-control. One, self-control is helped with tools. Yeah. You use the brick on your phone, I use the brick. I know a lot of people have been helped by a brick because our our phones that they've done a good job of making things very interesting, and we have no one to blame except ourselves in terms of our own self-control. All of us can say no to our phones, but tools can help. That's right. And uh, so if you have a brick and you haven't been using it, use it. But tools can help with self-control.

SPEAKER_00

And if you look at James Clear, you know, he said basically uh self-control is a bad long-term strategy for discipline. You need to arc, you know, architecturally design your environment. So if you don't want to, if you don't want to drink, don't put wine in your home, you know, or if you don't want to uh if you want to exercise, make sure that you that you structure your schedule in a way that gets you up to get you to the gym, right? And put out your clothes the night before so that when you get up, you're staring at them. You don't have to think, oh, where are my gym clothes? There they are. And so there's a lot of architectural design to a life that's disciplined. And uh, whether it's scheduling, whether it's literally the clothes you wear, the music you listen to, the things that you put in it, the things you take out of it, there's a structural design to a disciplined life. The word, I love the word here that Paul uses in 1 Corinthians 9, 25. He says, you know, when he says every athlete exercises self-control, that word exercises self-control is agonizomai. Like he agonizes over self-control. And that it's that it's an intentional uh struggle to wrestle against passivity, towards intentionality.

SPEAKER_02

That's yeah. What word did you use? The architectural something or another?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you just you architecturally design.

SPEAKER_02

You architecturally design your life. Yes. Okay, that that I like that. That's yeah. And and I think all of us can think of our versions of the architectural designs that are gonna be needed to be able to exercise self-control in uh particularly, I think, saying no to things that are either sin, um, but we're enticed by, or good things that are just unhelpful. Taking well, isn't that and they're unhelpful in so much as they are crowding out the essential things.

SPEAKER_00

A lesser yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. That's really good. The self-control needs tools, it needs an architectural design. I think self-control, second, self-control uh needs a deeper yes. This has been really uh compelling to me, and I don't remember if we talked about it either in a sermon or a podcast, but if we did, sorry. Yep. Uh Paul in 1 Corinthians 9 says no to a lot of things. Yeah. He's he says, I'm willing to say no to meat. Yeah. He makes the whole case that he's gonna say no to a salary, at least from them.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

He has lots of things that he's saying no to.

SPEAKER_00

Right.

SPEAKER_02

That's self-control. The self-control says no.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

But uh here's behind all the no's, he has a deeper yes. And his yes is I'm gonna cause no hindrance to the gospel. That's right. Okay, that's why I'm not gonna take that's why I'm gonna say no to a salary. Right. Um, here's why I'm gonna say no to sin and no to these other things. Here's my yes. I want to win you.

SPEAKER_00

That's right.

SPEAKER_02

And sometimes, especially in Christianity, what we have so many things that we're trying to say no to that we lack a deeper yes. Right. And so take reading your Bible. Um, reading your Bible, and I'm gonna say no to 30 minutes of extra sleep so that I can read my Bible. No more sleep so I can read my Bible. That that that's just not a super compelling yes, read my Bible. Here, here's a I uh what I find a much more compelling yes. Um I'm gonna say no to more sleep. Here's why. Because I want to know Jesus like Paul knew Jesus in Philippians 3, because I want to cultivate an intimacy with him that says, here, here's my yes. Uh that I would be able to know Jesus. That's right. Intimacy with Jesus. That's my yes. And so being able to self-control is helped by by not um not just having a list of things I'm trying to say no to, but having a yes that under undergirds those no's.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. And and it's not just even less sleep. Okay, maybe you're again the architectural design. Instead of saying, oh, I'm just gonna let my day go on forever and then just drop in the bed when I do. Part of the design is I'm gonna have a landing sequence each day, right? Bookends, so that I'm gonna structure my day in such a way as to uh, it's kind of like there's a launching sequence, like there's a there's a there's a kickoff to your day. The same is true of a landing sequence. And so I'm gonna have a landing sequence that puts me in bed in time to get me up in time to have a yes. So I'm gonna say no, not to 30 minutes of sleep in the morning, but to 30 minutes of junk in the night that I can get to bed earlier so that I can get up earlier, so that I can know Jesus and be filled with the life and the power of God. That is a compelling yes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. All right. So in self-control, everything we've said so far is good. It's just extremely limited that you could take everything we've said, put it in a book, and there is nothing overtly explicitly Christian about what we've said so far. It's not that it's I mean, I think it's good and right, and and we can make a biblical case. I think we are making a biblical case for everything that we're saying. But there's a third sort of layer in terms of self-control that I think has to be considered that is reserved for Christians. Okay, it's not just self-control is helped by tools, not just that self-control is helped by uh having a deeper yes. Uh self-control is, according to Galatians 5, what? A fruit of the spirit. Right. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Self-control. Right. So um for for exercising self-control for the sake of winning people is not just about tools. It's not just about the architectural design. It's not about willpower. Yeah, and it's not just about the the deeper yes. All that, everything we've said so far is good, but what we've said is essentially look at your calendar, and we've said look at uh some sort of uh compelling reason. Right. But not yet have we said look to God. Right, right. And now we are right because that is explicitly uh Christian and biblical. Self-control um is a fruit of the spirit that would make that and and that is important because it makes me go, okay, now I know where to look. And as we we do this a lot now, we hold the Bible above our heads, and we also we we go, all right. Like self-control makes me go, yeah, Lord, I don't, I don't have it. Yeah, but you do, God does. And uh and his spirit lives in me. And so it's not just finding any deeper, yes, it's not just the architectural design. It is Lord, help me. And actually by faith, trusting that he will do for me what he said he'd do for me, and that is bear fruit through me.

SPEAKER_00

That's right. So when the fiery darts are coming and, you know, all of the stimulus is hitting, and you know, we say God is our shield, right? God is our fortress. And what we mean is in that moment, God help me to hide behind you because you have infinite self-control. I do not, and let me hide behind you so that you are my shield and you fill me with your spirit and enable me to do things that I can't do without you, to to respond with patience and kindness and and and compassion and tenderness uh as opposed to anger and whatever else that that that would be a natural response without the Spirit of God giving us his self-control.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So I want to wrap things up for us now, and um next week want to give attention to okay, if we're gonna win people, then essential component to that is knowing the gospel. That's what I want to uh dive into next week. But for today, we've talked about winning people, and we've talked about self-control because that's what 1 Corinthians 9 talks about. And just want to uh say to the church, church, we want to equip us to think biblically about these things so that uh we can actually do them. We can actually have a burning passion church to win people. And when there's where there's not a burning passion to win people, uh to acknowledge that, to confess that, and then uh do what's right even when I don't have the passion for it. We want to be a church that wins people. Um in terms of winning the lost, building believers, and equipping workers, those three categories, I think that uh winning lost is where we have most room to grow as individuals in our church. And so uh, church, let's let's win the lost. And everything that we've said being not just relationally strategic, but relationally intentional. Let's find out how to love people and with an outcome in mind. I want to win them to Jesus, and part of that's gonna be self control, an architectural design with self control, a deeper yes with self control, and an abiding in Jesus for self control. Um, so let's win the lost and uh let's cultivate God's heart in that. All right. Thanks everyone for joining, and uh, we'll see you next week. Yep, let's go.